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  • S&P officially downgrades US debt to AA+. Washington is in control. More debt should fix it.



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    king_dead 1978 2011-08-05 19:01:37.0 login to vote score 7
    Hmm, one would hope whoever made that billion dollar short on a US downgrade would be getting a whooooooooooooooooole lot of attention right about now.

    If that ain't clear indicator or insider trading I don't know what is.
    ambition chicken 290 2011-08-05 19:04:59.0 login to vote score 2
    Only butthurt will change things.
    so vote republican 6688 2011-08-05 19:06:00.0 login to vote score 2
    I won.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:09:07.0 login to vote score 3
    I don't see why a country that spends much more than it makes and has for decades should be thought of as a bad credit risk.
    strikitrich 783 2011-08-05 19:13:03.0 login to vote score 3


    Remain Calm, All Is W'hell
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:30:18.0 login to vote score 1
    Big important story. Small forgotten thread.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:31:40.0 login to vote score 2
    Peter Barnes “Is there a risk that the United States could lose its AAA credit rating? Yes or no?”



    Geithner’s response: “No risk of that.”



    “No risk?” Barnes asked.



    “No risk,” Geithner said.

    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-05 19:34:25.0 login to vote score 2
    They wait till Friday afternoon to release it...

    Typical. It will be 3 days old by Monday maybe the public won't notice it so much. This is big news and really is an embarrassment to our leaders in government.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:35:08.0 login to vote score 2
    phil_herup: They wait till Friday afternoon to release it...

    Typical. It will be 3 days old by Monday maybe the public won't notice it so much. This is big news and really is an embarrassment to our leaders in government.


    Given today's volatility, this might just be the 7 day period in which the shit goes nuclear.
    finnley wren 24 2011-08-05 19:35:40.0 login to vote score 3
    Traitorous scum.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-05 19:36:05.0 login to vote score 1
    The Obama economic plan does not work, and has damaged America, by exploding the debt.
    pass the bacon 3512 2011-08-05 19:36:33.0 login to vote score 1
    What is the real world impact of this?

    And no, I give not shit one about politically, I want to know how joe six-pack is going to be affected.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:37:46.0 login to vote score 0
    pass the bacon: What is the real world impact of this?

    And no, I give not shit one about politically, I want to know how joe six-pack is going to be affected.


    Higher interest rates and monthly payments on credit cards, adjustable mortgages - further credit contraction - etc.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-05 19:38:12.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Traitorous scum.


    Absolutely. How dare they cross King Obama!
    finnley wren 24 2011-08-05 19:38:45.0 login to vote score 1
    pass the bacon: What is the real world impact of this?

    The rich get richer.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-05 19:39:20.0 login to vote score 1
    pass the bacon: I want to know how joe six-pack is going to be affected.


    He will never be able to get a loan and his savings will be wiped out.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:40:28.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: The rich get richer.

    that was Obama's plan from the start.
    pass the bacon 3512 2011-08-05 19:40:37.0 login to vote score 0
    czarangelus: Higher interest rates and monthly payments on credit cards, adjustable mortgages - further credit contraction - etc.

    So basically the middle class has to take an extra inch or two anally.

    That hardly sounds like OMG armageddon!
    finnley wren 24 2011-08-05 19:41:25.0 login to vote score 0
    czarangelus: that was Obama's plan from the start.

    Apparently.
    czarangelus 646 2011-08-05 19:42:02.0 login to vote score 1
    pass the bacon: So basically the middle class has to take an extra inch or two anally.

    That hardly sounds like OMG armageddon!


    Obama's dick is already tickling our uvulas.
    l.darte 554 2011-08-05 19:44:40.0 login to vote score 1
    phil_herup: They wait till Friday afternoon to release it...

    Typical. It will be 3 days old by Monday maybe the public won't notice it so much. This is big news and really is an embarrassment to our leaders in government.


    They don't call it "Bad News Friday" for nothing. Also, S&P was one of the assholes that were slapping AAA ratings on garbage mortgage derivatives. Wall St. is a big cesspool of thieves.
    pass the bacon 3512 2011-08-05 19:46:52.0 login to vote score 0
    czarangelus: Obama's dick is already tickling our uvulas.

    I knew you couldn't respond more than once without invoking politics.
    king_dead 1978 2011-08-05 19:48:34.0 login to vote score 4
    phil_herup: The Obama economic plan does not work, and has damaged America, by exploding the debt.

    Give me a fucking break. Beyond the bailout, which was Bush admin backed and designed, the only spendy shit Obama's admin has been throwing cash at are the wars. Wars he promised to stop and made conservatives scream bloody murder about doing so. This isn't Obama's debt....it's everyone's debt. Which, I might add, was a manageable thing until the republicans decided to make their waterloo on it.


    keerbip 4358 2011-08-05 20:00:18.0 login to vote score 0
    phil_herup: They wait till Friday afternoon to release it...

    Typical. It will be 3 days old by Monday maybe the public won't notice it so much. This is big news and really is an embarrassment to our leaders in government.


    Yes, let's vote the S&P incumbents out.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-05 20:02:10.0 login to vote score 4
    king_dead: Give me a fucking break. Beyond the bailout, which was Bush admin backed and designed, the only spendy shit Obama's admin has been throwing cash at are the wars. Wars he promised to stop and made conservatives scream bloody murder about doing so. This isn't Obama's debt....it's everyone's debt. Which, I might add, was a manageable thing until the republicans decided to make their waterloo on it.


    Wow. What completely dishonest post. That is some weapons grade apologetics right there. Do you bathe in Kool Aid? Obama has exploded the debt. Have you seen the numbers?

    Clinton rate of debt growth... $16.1 Billion/month
    Bush crushed it out at .......... $51 Billion/month (insanity right?)
    Obama nukes it from orbit.... $123.9 Billion/month and he going for way moar.

    The Democrats caused this . They inherited a wounded economy and raped it.

    quick1 501 2011-08-05 20:10:42.0 login to vote score 3
    phil_herup: Wow. What completely dishonest post. That is some weapons grade apologetics right there. Do you bathe in Kool Aid? Obama has exploded the debt. Have you seen the numbers?

    Clinton rate of debt growth... $16.1 Billion/month
    Bush crushed it out at .......... $51 Billion/month (insanity right?)
    Obama nukes it from orbit.... $123.9 Billion/month and he going for way moar.

    The Democrats caused this . They inherited a wounded economy and raped it.


    Yes, Obama increased the debt by that much... if you start counting from the day he was sworn into office. Only someone who was completely naive would think that he actually had control over that spending before he had even proposed a budget.
    keerbip 4358 2011-08-05 20:12:35.0 login to vote score 1
    quick1: Yes, Obama increased the debt by that much... if you start counting from the day he was sworn into office. Only someone who was completely naive would think that he actually had control over that spending before he had even proposed a budget.

    Wow! Kool-Aid! Empty suit! LIBS!!!
    brazil 316 2011-08-05 20:19:46.0 login to vote score 2
    quick1: Yes, Obama increased the debt by that much... if you start counting from the day he was sworn into office. Only someone who was completely naive would think that he actually had control over that spending before he had even proposed a budget.

    Budget? What budget?
    quick1 501 2011-08-05 20:21:46.0 login to vote score 3
    brazil: Budget? What budget?


    iadtatami 682 2011-08-05 20:22:21.0 login to vote score 1
    FFS, when will you people stop playing red rocket with phil?
    brewer 355 2011-08-05 20:24:03.0 login to vote score 1
    quick1: Yes, Obama increased the debt by that much... if you start counting from the day he was sworn into office. Only someone who was completely naive would think that he actually had control over that spending before he had even proposed a budget.

    Isn't the budget Congress's bailiwick?
    joerandom 1434 2011-08-05 20:27:35.0 login to vote score 0
    iadtatami: FFS, when will you people stop playing red rocket with phil?

    you mean "capt kirk"?
    finnley wren 24 2011-08-05 20:27:50.0 login to vote score 0
    brewer: Isn't the budget Congress's bailiwick?

    Turns out . . . no.
    muninsfire 189 2011-08-05 20:30:15.0 login to vote score 3
    iadtatami: FFS, when will you people stop playing red rocket with phil?

    Hey, I was out drinking some lovely beer. You all were the ones derping.

    Come over to my thread. We can talk about beer.
    mtbhucker 1201 2011-08-06 00:31:38.0 login to vote score 2

    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-06 05:00:56.0 login to vote score 0
    quick1: Yes, Obama increased the debt by that much... if you start counting from the day he was sworn into office. Only someone who was completely naive would think that he actually had control over that spending before he had even proposed a budget.



    He blew it up. Just Stimulus alone was almost a Trillion$$$ with a pen stroke.




    mtbhucker:

    The left loves to bring out charts and graphs. One of the biggest parts of your well known and dishonest chart is the "Bush Tax Cuts" The left talks about these like they are spending al the time.THE BUSH TAX CUTS ARE NOT SPENDING. So stop calling them that. Even Obama participates in the lie, the whole cult does.


    The real issue is not Bush, but rather what Obama did after he got it in. He blew it up, and big time.

    Keep lying though. That is all the left has is lies on this regards when it comes to fiscla matters the Democrats have failed epically.

    Just admit it. You support failure and bad ideas that do not work. That is the only honest road for you to take, or you can live the lie.


    sloth 222 2011-08-06 05:11:30.0 login to vote score 0
    pass the bacon: What is the real world impact of this?

    And no, I give not shit one about politically, I want to know how joe six-pack is going to be affected.


    Nobody knows - the whole point is that it's uncharted territory, and nobody's really sure about the impact.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 05:12:15.0 login to vote score 0
    brewer: Isn't the budget Congress's bailiwick?

    Yes.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 05:13:26.0 login to vote score 0
    king_dead: Give me a fucking break. Beyond the bailout, which was Bush admin backed and designed, the only spendy shit Obama's admin has been throwing cash at are the wars. Wars he promised to stop and made conservatives scream bloody murder about doing so. This isn't Obama's debt....it's everyone's debt. Which, I might add, was a manageable thing until the republicans decided to make their waterloo on it.


    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-06 05:22:46.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth:

    Your chart is better, but it does not give king_dead, liar that he is, the smackdown his dishonest post deserved.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 05:25:19.0 login to vote score 1
    phil_herup: Your chart is better, but it does not give king_dead, liar that he is, the smackdown his dishonest post deserved.

    Don't be a dick, man.
    finnley wren 24 2011-08-06 05:25:41.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Yes.

    No. The president makes the budget.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-06 05:28:29.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Don't be a dick, man.

    I am one of the good guys... man. Being a dick is sometimes called for, like now.


    little hands of concrete 1804 2011-08-06 05:36:31.0 login to vote score 1
    phil_herup: I am one of the good guys... man. Being a dick is sometimes called for, like now.

    As long as you spew your dumbass conservative talking points the way you do here, you can claim to be a good guy, but that doesn't make you one.


    sloth 222 2011-08-06 05:57:30.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: No. The president makes the budget.

    The President suggests a budget. Congress passes a budget. And spending may or may not be on the budget.

    For example, none of the TARP or bailout stuff was on anyone's budget. Likewise "mandatory spending" like Medicare and Medicaid is also not on the budget.

    So while, yes, the President proposes a budget, pretty much all actual spending is driven by Congressional action. There are a few exceptions of stuff driven by Presidential action, like emergency spending - but even there, ultimately, Congress is the one with the power to control the purse.
    thebugman 639 2011-08-06 06:01:30.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth:

    I don't know how to break this to you but your graph is wrong in a few places.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/108th_United_States_Congress

    The 108th congress (2003 to 2004) was all republican and not split.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/107th_United_States_Congress

    The 107th (2001 to 2002) then had the senate spend some time in each party's control.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/104th_United_States_Congress

    The 104th, (1995 to 1997) was in complete republican control for the entire time.


    Additionally it's pretty disingenuous to attribute budgets (deficits) to a president who isn't responsible for it. i.e. Obama isn't responsible for the 2009 deficit any more than Bush for 2001 given that it wasn't their budget.
    superdug 3745 2011-08-06 06:24:54.0 login to vote score 0
    The thing that you people here don't understand is the following:

    People, a vast large overwhelming majority of them, don't give a shit. They've got other things to worry about right now, and what the credit rating on US is, is NOT one of them.

    We, here, say that not raising taxes, raising taxes, unified healthcare, free-market, etc will fix all of these regular peoples problems. We don't understand why these people don't realize that if both parties got to do exactly what they wanted and no one was allowed to exploit the system, life would be better for everyone.

    They don't understand, because there is no proof of it. Millions of people are out of work. Millions of people are living in small apartments that used to live in single family homes. Millions of kids are failing out of school because of outside influences. Millions of people are suffering and talking about the problems, doesn't fucking help them.

    These people however are actually very smart in one aspect. That aspect is the fact that they feel politicians are disconnected from the vast majority. They feel that politicians in general are liars and interested only in themselves and in those who help them.

    That's the problem.

    We say how dumb they are, how much they don't understand, how much they can't see the forest from the trees, and how they don't know what's good for them.

    They do know that politicians don't solve problems, they just make new ones. So any time someone wants to go against the grain in any political space, they are enchanted by them. That's the reason the tea party is where it's at. The whole idea of "fuck government and the people in it" is a very appealing ideology.

    Ask anyone to name the Secretary of State, Secretary of Defense, Speaker of the House, Senate Minority leader, and I will bet no one you ask will be able to name all of them.

    Why is this? Because they don't care.

    The bigger question that no one can answer for them, is why should they? They've got real problems to worry about, and the fucking credit rating of the US by the S&P is not one of them.

    They know the one truth we all know, politicians are self-centered and don't actually care about the people they are charged with representing. So they just stopped caring.

    Can you blame them?

    I can't, especially knowing that they're ... you know ... right
    gahbrone 481 2011-08-06 06:28:40.0 login to vote score 0
    See if they don't give a shit when their credit card payment, mortgage, food, costs more in a very short tie
    l.darte 554 2011-08-06 06:30:00.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth:

    The graph is misleading and disingenuous. Bush crashed the economy which caused the GDP to dramatically drop making the debt appear a lot larger for Obama. Show the debt in terms of real dollars and see what you get.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-06 06:33:49.0 login to vote score 0
    gahbrone: See if they don't give a shit when their credit card payment, mortgage, food, costs more in a very short tie


    They will get the rude awakening that trickle down really does work, but this time it will not be good.
    phil_herup 8976 2011-08-06 06:35:26.0 login to vote score 0
    l.darte: Bush crashed the economy


    What did he do? How did he do it?



    l.darte: making the debt appear a lot larger for Obama.

    Get out of the Kool Aid tub. That shit will stain you blue.


    finnley wren 24 2011-08-06 06:37:14.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: The President suggests a budget. Congress passes a budget. And spending may or may not be on the budget.

    I woulda gone with "the President, by law, is required to submit a budget to Congress each year, between the first Monday in January and the first Monday in February. The President's budget is first analyzed by the CBO, and then the House and Senate Budget Committees begin consideration of President's budget proposals."

    The budget process begins (and ends, via his signature) with the President.
    superdug 3745 2011-08-06 06:41:05.0 login to vote score 0
    gahbrone: See if they don't give a shit when their credit card payment, mortgage, food, costs more in a very short tie

    It won't be noticeable. If you already can't pay your bills, making them bigger isn't going to have the effect you think it will.
    anniesboobs 10844 2011-08-06 06:43:53.0 login to vote score 0
    Let's hear it for apathy, superdug!

    And while S&P's AAA rating is pretty much worthless after giving them to subprime derivatives, read their own report as to why they did it: Teabagger inflexibility.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 06:59:34.0 login to vote score 0
    The 108th congress (2003 to 2004) was all republican and not split.

    Correct - I didn't make the chart. It's from wikipedia, and while you note correctly that some of the shadings a little off, overall it's pretty handy.

    Additionally it's pretty disingenuous to attribute budgets (deficits) to a president who isn't responsible for it. i.e. Obama isn't responsible for the 2009 deficit any more than Bush for 2001 given that it wasn't their budget.

    It's worth noting that the massive spending contributing to the 2009 deficit wasn't on _anyone's_ budget. It wasn't on a budget at all. I actually noted this above. So arguing about whose budget was in effect is kinda missing the point.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:01:31.0 login to vote score 0
    thebugman: I don't know how to break this to you but your graph is wrong in a few places.

    Correct - I didn't make the chart. It's from wikipedia, and while you note correctly that some of the shadings a little off, overall it's pretty handy.

    thebugman: Additionally it's pretty disingenuous to attribute budgets (deficits) to a president who isn't responsible for it. i.e. Obama isn't responsible for the 2009 deficit any more than Bush for 2001 given that it wasn't their budget.

    It's worth noting that the massive spending contributing to the 2009 deficit wasn't on _anyone's_ budget. It wasn't on a budget at all. I actually noted this above. So arguing about whose budget was in effect is kinda missing the point.

    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:04:16.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: The budget process begins (and ends, via his signature) with the President.

    And the spending process doesn't end with the budget. As was noted in the bit you didn't quote.

    It's very dishonest to talk about whose budget the TARP and bailouts spending belong to, because they weren't on anyone's budget. No president of any party submitted a budget dealing with that spending.
    superdug 3745 2011-08-06 07:09:27.0 login to vote score 0
    anniesboobs: Let's hear it for apathy, superdug!

    And while S&P's AAA rating is pretty much worthless after giving them to subprime derivatives, read their own report as to why they did it: Teabagger inflexibility.


    It's not apathy though, they just don't have enough time in the day to care about this sort of thing. Why should they?
    thebugman 639 2011-08-06 07:12:58.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Correct - I didn't make the chart. It's from wikipedia, and while you note correctly that some of the shadings a little off, overall it's pretty handy.

    Yeah except it's still disingenuous as 1.darte said since it's not given in real dollars / adjusted for inflation, to make it appear much worse than in actuality.

    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:18:38.0 login to vote score 1
    thebugman: Yeah except it's still disingenuous as 1.darte said since it's not given in real dollars / adjusted for inflation, to make it appear much worse than in actuality.

    It's given in percentage of GDP - which actually has much the same effect as real dollars adjusted for inflation. It's not like it's in constant dollars or anything - perc of GDP is a good solid measure.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:19:40.0 login to vote score 0
    But, hey, if you want it in adjusted dollars:



    I think the growth curve on that one looks even worse.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:19:58.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: It's given in percentage of GDP - which actually has much the same effect as real dollars adjusted for inflation. It's not like it's in [nominal] dollars or anything - perc of GDP is a good solid measure.


    finnley wren 24 2011-08-06 07:30:51.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: And the spending process doesn't end with the budget. As was noted in the bit you didn't quote.

    It's very dishonest to talk about whose budget the TARP and bailouts spending belong to, because they weren't on anyone's budget. No president of any party submitted a budget dealing with that spending.


    I don't even know what we're arguing about here.

    In answer to a question, you stated that budgeting is Congress's responsibility. In fact, you answered in one word, "Yes." Is that the part I didn't quote?

    Anyway, the President has more than a hand in the budget, by law, which was the question that was asked, and what we were talking about.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:40:06.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: I don't even know what we're arguing about here.

    Are we arguing?

    finnley wren: In answer to a question, you stated that budgeting is Congress's responsibility. In fact, you answered in one word, "Yes."

    Ah, yes. OK, I was responding to the issue of "spending" not "budgeting." The budgeting process is President-centric. The spending process is Congress-centric.

    finnley wren: Is that the part I didn't quote?

    No, the part in the other post where I noted that spending goes beyond the budget.
    funklordtoejam 1042 2011-08-06 07:44:20.0 login to vote score 1
    If only we could fix the budget by blaming people. Hell, we'd have a fucking surplus if we got a penny for every instance of finger pointing.
    sloth 222 2011-08-06 07:47:45.0 login to vote score 1
    funklordtoejam: If only we could fix the budget by blaming people. Hell, we'd have a fucking surplus if we got a penny for every instance of finger pointing.

    Dunno - a trillion finger-points is a *lot* of finger-pointing.
    fatsean 3838 2011-08-06 08:00:48.0 login to vote score 1
    America is fucked. Nobody is going to give up the entitlements they use, which means none of them will be cut. Get used to it and pray for an economic growth miracle.
    quick1 501 2011-08-06 08:00:56.0 login to vote score 0
    phil_herup: He blew it up. Just Stimulus alone was almost a Trillion$$$ with a pen stroke.

    Yes, but he did not sign the stimulus 30 seconds after being sworn in. I remember when you posted a link to the source of your numbers, and it started counting from January 20.
    fatsean 3838 2011-08-06 08:02:22.0 login to vote score 0
    It's like my credit card bank heard me arguing with my wife that I wasn't going to pay the bill until she stopped buying so many shoes, so the bank jacked up my rates because they had a real fear that I wouldn't pay the minimum balance.

    That's what the stubborn legislators who refused to accept any ideas from the other side have done.


    the bon_scott 1073 2011-08-06 08:02:32.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Dunno - a trillion finger-points is a *lot* of finger-pointing.

    Probably cause a lot of cases of carpal tunnel, too.
    brazil 316 2011-08-06 08:09:39.0 login to vote score 0
    Time to get out the chainsaw.
    If you logged in, you could post here.