Hide Comments Below
  • -3
  • -2
  • -1
  • 0
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • off
  • The top 25 christian reactions to #GODISNOTGREAT



    Comment 0
    Cool
  • vote cool
  • vote uncool
  • Terms of Service Violation
  • strike inappropriate
  • not inappropriate
  • Other
  • sunlight
  • kick from thread
  • get permlink
  • Tagged with : beware the jabberwock , insatiable cock lust , phil quixote , remind them that rabb , santic bitches , threadnaught

    What are tags?
    Comments 401 through 500 of 1816 shown. Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:12:35.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: If he's wrong and it's good to believe in things just because it makes us feel good? Then he is wasting his time teaching critical thinking. Because that's not the area of concern. If beliefs are not attendant on behavior we should have nothing to worry about from dogma and religious fanaticism.

    And no, I don't understand how this one case is different than all the other cases presented. How is it that it is different?


    How is Santa different than Astrology? It's a false equivalence of the worst kind. You've boiled down the fun and magic of a childhood fantasy to be the equal of a damaging belief in stars running a person's life, or in the rejection of actual life-saving science for crystals and quack remedies. Do you not honestly see the difference?


    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:13:40.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: I don't know how this thread went from Hitchens to Santa, but I am amused by the parallel between realizing that the Santa story is make believe and realizing that the Jesus story is make believe.

    And Christian bners, don't get me wrong, the guy may really have existed, but he wasn't born on the winter solstice.


    I asked "Do you think it's at all dangerous to encourage people to believe things for which no evidence possibly exists?" - essentially pretty lies - things we WANT to be true but can show no evidence in support of. I was told that it ordinarily was but there was no harm in believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. I asked if that person thought that was actually true before he alerted me to the fact that he was referring to himself and his family.

    I then failed in any effort to have an objective conversation on the subject.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:15:07.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: I don't know how this thread went from Hitchens to Santa, but I am amused by the parallel between realizing that the Santa story is make believe and realizing that the Jesus story is make believe.

    And Christian bners, don't get me wrong, the guy may really have existed, but he wasn't born on the winter solstice.


    Well, the difference is that a "Santa" actually existed, and people still take on the mantel to do good works. No one really acts like Jesus.

    BTW, interestingly, I saw Pat Robertson say the Catholics co-opted a pagan holiday to bring people to the church, and that Jesus wasn't born in December, but probably in April or thereabouts. I was momentarily floored.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:16:28.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: How is Santa different than Astrology? It's a false equivalence of the worst kind. You've boiled down the fun and magic of a childhood fantasy to be the equal of a damaging belief in stars running a person's life, or in the rejection of actual life-saving science for crystals and quack remedies. Do you not honestly see the difference?

    No. I don't. And I think that, judging by the fact that you can't express it well, neither do you.

    Pretty lies are control mechanisms. We would do well to reject them.

    I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine. What if Dawkins is right in fighting against this subscription to pretty lies- in fighting for critical thinking over happy magical thinking? What if we have a chance, when kids are any age, to be honest and truthful to them about the REAL magic the universe has to offer.

    Do you remember chapter one of "Demon Haunted World"?
    the bon_scott 1073 2011-12-20 23:20:45.0 login to vote score 1
    Why does Santa Claus have trouble fathering a child?



    Because he always comes down the chimney.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-20 23:23:49.0 login to vote score 0
    Oh man, I really am a masochist.

    Uh...I kind of thought I grasped what the current argument is. Clearly didn't.

    What the what are you arguing about?
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:25:09.0 login to vote score -1
    paranoyd: Therefore, I am a liar.

    Yes. Yes you are.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:26:00.0 login to vote score -1
    For the record, it does seem that the Santa Claus myth is one of the more effective and intentional controlling deceits perpetrated on children. Beyond the fact that it seems to promote materialism it establishes the "panopticon" control mechanism that religion does (you are being watched) along with the simplistic pre-religious reward mechanism (being good = toys, being bad= coal) and seemingly creates external validation for everything parents would like their child to be doing in this season, including writing letters revealing what they want for Christmas.

    On the way to the cab today i heard a parent tell their daughter that if she weren't good, Santa Claus wasn't going to come. I wish I had videotaped that and could post it here.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:27:23.0 login to vote score -1
    untrustworthy: Yes. Yes you are.

    The thing is, I never said that. He internalized it. I don't really care what he tells his daughter. I am having this conversation from an objective perspective. It's sad for me that he is feeling victimized.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:29:01.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: I asked "Do you think it's at all dangerous to encourage people to believe things for which no evidence possibly exists?" - essentially pretty lies - things we WANT to be true but can show no evidence in support of. I was told that it ordinarily was but there was no harm in believing in Santa or the Easter Bunny. I asked if that person thought that was actually true before he alerted me to the fact that he was referring to himself and his family.

    I then failed in any effort to have an objective conversation on the subject.


    You responded to my assertion that I tell my kid about Santa and the Easter Bunny with this: pajamas: Sure. There are lots of ways to live. But It's odd that you can't understand my aversion to lying. It seems to be a reasonable one.

    I was specifically talking about my kid and how I live and that's how you responded. Seemed personal then. Still kind-of does.

    pajamas: No. I don't. And I think that, judging by the fact that you can't express it well, neither do you.

    I can't express it well? I've already explained that I don't have the education you do - I CAN'T express things as well as you do. I don't have the tools. I do the best I can, but you don't seem to want to meet me at the level I'm capable of communicating. But, please, show me where I didn't express it well. Show me how I didn't point out the difference between the two things - I did.

    pajamas: Pretty lies are control mechanisms. We would do well to reject them.

    I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine. What if Dawkins is right in fighting against this subscription to pretty lies- in fighting for critical thinking over happy magical thinking? What if we have a chance, when kids are any age, to be honest and truthful to them about the REAL magic the universe has to offer.


    Then I respectfully reject the idea and will tell my child about Santa, because who cares if I give my child one intentional and fun fiction in her childhood? I don't suppose you noticed any of my posts where I explained that I teach her about evolution and the human body, and her mother is a vet and she wants to be a doctor. We took her to the body exhibit because she wanted to see what the insides of a person looked like when she was 3. She's fucking brilliant. I explain how religion is a set of stories, but science is real. And she knows the Easter Bunny is a guy in a suit. Today we discussed photosynthesis and why the leaves fall off the trees. But I let her believe in Santa, because she won't in a few years. I don't even disagree that a series of lies is damaging. But this isn't that. It's a specific thing. And you just can't see it.

    pajamas: Do you remember chapter one of "Demon Haunted World"?

    I haven't read it. As I said, I am not as well-educated or well-read as you. I do my best, but I'm afraid I read more science fiction than non-fiction.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:29:13.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: The thing is, I never said that. He internalized it. I don't really care what he tells his daughter. I am having this conversation from an objective perspective. It's sad for me that he is feeling victimized.

    Sorry. Nothing to do with you on my comment. Just flagging a truthful statement he made for once.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:30:07.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Yes. Yes you are.

    There it is. I knew you couldn't let it go. What a child.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:30:37.0 login to vote score 0
    Also. Santa Claus operates easily as a model for modern cultural theism. He is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved, who dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a specific and rehearsed pre-defined code of conduct. Despite no real evidence existing and his behavior being implausible or impossible, faith is expected if you want to be rewarded.

    This is a dry run for adherence to Christianity. I don't understand how you can even argue it is not.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:30:43.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Sorry. Nothing to do with you on my comment. Just flagging a truthful statement he made for once.

    Sorry, you of all people don't get to do that. I won't allow it.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:30:57.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Also. Santa Claus operates easily as a model for modern cultural theism. He is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved, who dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a specific and rehearsed pre-defined code of conduct. Despite no real evidence existing and his behavior being implausible or impossible, faith is expected if you want to be rewarded.

    This is a dry run for adherence to Christianity. I don't understand how you can even argue it is not.


    It's not.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:32:56.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: There it is. I knew you couldn't let it go. What a child.

    Why would I let it go? You are feeling victimized as a liar when you falsely claim others are liars. Take your medicine.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:33:09.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Why would I let it go? You are feeling victimized as a liar when you falsely claim others are liars. Take your medicine.

    Fuck off.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:34:02.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd:

    I haven't read it. As I said, I am not as well-educated or well-read as you. I do my best, but I'm afraid I read more science fiction than non-fiction.


    It is an interesting read. it begins with a very intelligent and sharp cab driver picking up Carl Sagan. He recognizes Sagan as "that famous scientist" and wants to ask some questions. Sagan says "fire away" and sits back.

    Every question is about astrology or homeopathy or the moon's construction by aliens or crystals or atlantis or droves of other pseudo-scientific nonsense.

    Sagan commented to the reader that here was a man whose mind was open and was looking. But his environment shoved garbage into that mind. Pretty lies, playful fictions.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:34:55.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: Sorry, you of all people don't get to do that. I won't allow it.

    Ooh... Whatcha gonna do?

    /grabs popcorn
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:35:12.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: It is an interesting read. it begins with a very intelligent and sharp cab driver picking up Carl Sagan. He recognizes Sagan as "that famous scientist" and wants to ask some questions. Sagan says "fire away" and sits back.

    Every question is about astrology or homeopathy or the moon's construction by aliens or crystals or atlantis or droves of other pseudo-scientific nonsense.

    Sagan commented to the reader that here was a man whose mind was open and was looking. But his environment shoved garbage into that mind. Pretty lies, playful fictions.


    I don't believe in any of those things.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:35:13.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: It's not.

    Bullshit. What I just said outlined the very clear similarities between the two.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:35:28.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: Fuck off.

    No. You earned it. Go cry elsewhere if you can't take it.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:35:55.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Bullshit. What I just said outlined the very clear similarities between the two.

    Not for me. I don't relate the two at all. Feel free to do so, but that's not what it means for me.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:36:07.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: No. You earned it. Go cry elsewhere if you can't take it.

    Fuck off more.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:36:38.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I don't believe in any of those things.

    Again, not talking about you. Talking about why it is valuable to promote the truth. Real knowledge. And real wonder about the workings of the real universe.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-20 23:37:15.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: For the record, it does seem that the Santa Claus myth is one of the more effective and intentional controlling deceits perpetrated on children. Beyond the fact that it seems to promote materialism it establishes the "panopticon" control mechanism that religion does (you are being watched) along with the simplistic pre-religious reward mechanism (being good = toys, being bad= coal) and seemingly creates external validation for everything parents would like their child to be doing in this season, including writing letters revealing what they want for Christmas.

    On the way to the cab today i heard a parent tell their daughter that if she weren't good, Santa Claus wasn't going to come. I wish I had videotaped that and could post it here.


    My parents were agnostics. They raised my sister and I as such, but adhered to certain Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter because they didn't want us to feel excluded. I realized that Santa wasn't real a year or two before my parents told me because...I'm going to be honest...I thought I'd get more presents if they thought I believed in Santa.

    And in retrospect...that was really the worst thing I ever did as a child. Try to get more Christmas presents. I always thought that was some pretty shady shit for a child to pull. It seems...embarrassingly lame when I see it in text.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:37:16.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: Fuck off more.

    Cry a little louder. Show us some tears.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:37:58.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: Again, not talking about you. Talking about why it is valuable to promote the truth. Real knowledge. And real wonder about the workings of the real universe.

    I think it's great to talk about. I'll make sure, as I have done, to show my child how those things are bullshit. When she can understand them. Not when she's 4.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:38:09.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: Cry a little louder. Show us some tears.

    And more.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:39:32.0 login to vote score 1
    antialias: My parents were agnostics. They raised my sister and I as such, but adhered to certain Christian holidays like Christmas and Easter because they didn't want us to feel excluded. I realized that Santa wasn't real a year or two before my parents told me because...I'm going to be honest...I thought I'd get more presents if they thought I believed in Santa.

    And in retrospect...that was really the worst thing I ever did as a child. Try to get more Christmas presents. I always thought that was some pretty shady shit for a child to pull. It seems...embarrassingly lame when I see it in text.


    That was the worst thing? You are a parent's dream. :)
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:40:18.0 login to vote score 2
    paranoyd: Not for me. I don't relate the two at all. Feel free to do so, but that's not what it means for me.

    Great, again, not for you. Your argument so far has been that everything is different for you. Which is reason number 457 why I didn't want to have this forced discussion ABOUT YOU.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved,

    Santa Claus/Jesus - dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a specific and rehearsed pre-defined code of conduct.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Despite no real evidence existing and his behavior being implausible or impossible, faith is expected if you want to be rewarded.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Knows if you've been bad or good- omniscient

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Able to perform unbelievable acts we are meant to believe- the one day gift delivery- the loaves and fishes

    Santa Claus/Jesus - We are meant to believe he hears our requests personally, from letters or prayers

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Puts material reward on behaving - gifts or heaven

    Santa Claus/Jesus - can be used as a control mechanism to force better behavior


    How can you not see this.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:40:27.0 login to vote score -1
    paranoyd: And more.

    Its odd how you can run around falsely calling others liars and then you whine terribly when you get called on it. Try not making up shit about people and maybe you'll earn a little respect sometime.

    Tip then, keep crying.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:41:34.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: I think it's great to talk about. I'll make sure, as I have done, to show my child how those things are bullshit. When she can understand them. Not when she's 4.

    And again, NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. But children at any age do not deserve to be fed lies. It is possible to showcase the wonder of the REAL world in an age appropriate way. Again, Dawkin's point.
    sabine 745 2011-12-20 23:41:44.0 login to vote score 1
    antialias: that was really the worst thing I ever did as a child

    Wow. That probably wouldn't make my top 100 list.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:42:09.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Great, again, not for you. Your argument so far has been that everything is different for you. Which is reason number 457 why I didn't want to have this forced discussion ABOUT YOU.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved,

    Santa Claus/Jesus - dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a specific and rehearsed pre-defined code of conduct.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Despite no real evidence existing and his behavior being implausible or impossible, faith is expected if you want to be rewarded.

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Knows if you've been bad or good- omniscient

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Able to perform unbelievable acts we are meant to believe- the one day gift delivery- the loaves and fishes

    Santa Claus/Jesus - We are meant to believe he hears our requests personally, from letters or prayers

    Santa Claus/Jesus - Puts material reward on behaving - gifts or heaven

    Santa Claus/Jesus - can be used as a control mechanism to force better behavior


    How can you not see this.


    I know what you mean. Which is why I'm not using it as a stepping stone to religion. I'm avoiding the trap, as it were.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:43:14.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: Its odd how you can run around falsely calling others liars and then you whine terribly when you get called on it. Try not making up shit about people and maybe you'll earn a little respect sometime.

    Tip then, keep crying.


    Oh, you mean when I made a mistake and owned up to it AND apologized, three or four times, and yet you refuse to let it go? So sad. You really are rather pathetic.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:43:55.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: And again, NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. But children at any age do not deserve to be fed lies. It is possible to showcase the wonder of the REAL world in an age appropriate way. Again, Dawkin's point.

    On a more serious point, this is very true. Children understand lies. And lies build distrust. I understand that the concept of Santa is good natured, but I think kids can enjoy fantasy without being told its true.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:44:19.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: And again, NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU. But children at any age do not deserve to be fed lies. It is possible to showcase the wonder of the REAL world in an age appropriate way. Again, Dawkin's point.

    Yes, it is. And I am - with Santa. That's age appropriate.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:44:29.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I know what you mean. Which is why I'm not using it as a stepping stone to religion. I'm avoiding the trap, as it were.

    Again. NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

    This is a dry run for religion. It exercises the same "cognitive muscles". It is worth opposing for a reason, not because people who oppose it are funpires. But because they want something better for young people than to be indoctrinated in the ways of magical thinking, especially when that magical thinking can be so readily directed toward religious dogma.
    sabine 745 2011-12-20 23:44:31.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: This is a dry run for adherence to Christianity.

    Is it possible that some of the aspects that lead you to this conclusion have been added recently? The original Dutch festival doesn't seem to be particularly religious, and Santa does his thing in cultures where Christianity is a relatively minor religion.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:45:09.0 login to vote score -1
    paranoyd: Oh, you mean when I made a mistake and owned up to it AND apologized, three or four times, and yet you refuse to let it go? So sad. You really are rather pathetic.

    You didn't apologize. You acted like a complete ass while propagating a lie about me.

    You seem to be suffering from poor memory. The symptoms are showing in this thread and in the previous thread. Get it checked out.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:45:13.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: Again. NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

    This is a dry run for religion. It exercises the same "cognitive muscles". It is worth opposing for a reason, not because people who oppose it are funpires. But because they want something better for young people than to be indoctrinated in the ways of magical thinking, especially when that magical thinking can be so readily directed toward religious dogma.


    Well, you can make specious comparisons with anything if you try hard enough.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:45:14.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Yes, it is. And I am - with Santa. That's age appropriate.

    There are age appropriate truths that can be told to children. It is possible to showcase the wonder of the REAL world in an age appropriate way.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-20 23:46:10.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: That was the worst thing? You are a parent's dream. :)

    I was a really, just insanely nice kid. But I wasn't a parent's dream, I suffered from depression and anxiety, and got terrible grades because I never did my work. And I had no friends.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:46:17.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Well, you can make specious comparisons with anything if you try hard enough.

    What? Specious? How many points of comparison are needed between the "magical thinking" of Santa and the "Magical thinking" of religion before it's a real point, then? 20? 30?
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:46:29.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: You didn't apologize. You acted like a complete ass while propagating a lie about me.

    You seem to be suffering from poor memory. The symptoms are showing in this thread and in the previous thread. Get it checked out.


    No, sorry. It was pointed out by others that I apologized and owned up. Feel free to get checked out for that butthurt, though. It tends to fester if you let it go for too long.
    submitter 10915 2011-12-20 23:46:31.0 login to vote score 2
    It was getting boring on bN with only untrustworthy knowing everything. I'm glad pajamas showed up. We needed a female know-it-all.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-20 23:47:30.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Wow. That probably wouldn't make my top 100 list.

    See that thing I just said. I was a total sap.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:48:51.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Is it possible that some of the aspects that lead you to this conclusion have been added recently? The original Dutch festival doesn't seem to be particularly religious, and Santa does his thing in cultures where Christianity is a relatively minor religion.

    The all seeing (omniscient), multitasking (omnipotent), and otherworldy benevolent character of Santa Claus is consistent across cultures that have a character in this position and tend to be consistent across god belief structures as well.

    It may well be an unconscious molding of this control mechanism to match the effectiveness of the theistic one.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:50:37.0 login to vote score -1
    paranoyd: No, sorry. It was pointed out by others that I apologized and owned up. Feel free to get checked out for that butthurt, though. It tends to fester if you let it go for too long.

    I have better memory than you, apparently. You said' "mea culpa" to someone else and never apologized to me. You just repeatedly acted like an outright ass after propagating a false claim.

    You dished when you had no claim. So go fuck yourself with a blender.
    someone who may or may not be Just wondering 2011-12-20 23:50:52.0 login to vote score 0
    When it mutilato going to show up and make his own comments without channeling them through someone else?
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:51:38.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: I was a really, just insanely nice kid. But I wasn't a parent's dream, I suffered from depression and anxiety, and got terrible grades because I never did my work. And I had no friends.

    Well, that's pretty sad. I assume you grew out of it? (What am I saying? You're on bN - you obviously have no life.) ;)
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:52:08.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: I have better memory than you, apparently. You said' "mea culpa" to someone else and never apologized to me. You just repeatedly acted like an outright ass after propagating a false claim.

    You dished when you had no claim. So go fuck yourself with a blender.


    Oh, but I did say Mea Culpa to you. So, you go enjoy the blender, sir.
    sabine 745 2011-12-20 23:53:01.0 login to vote score 2
    pajamas: The all seeing (omniscient), multitasking (omnipotent), and otherworldy benevolent character of Santa Claus is consistent across cultures that have a character in this position and tend to be consistent across god belief structures as well.

    Don't children tend to ascribe those traits to all adults, or at least their parents? Japan's population is about 10% Christian, and Santa is just this nice guy who you write letters to and he gives you gifts.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:53:46.0 login to vote score 1
    someone who may or may not be Just wondering: When it mutilato going to show up and make his own comments without channeling them through someone else?

    Well, that's probably the most offensive of all.


    Whatevs. I will take my know it all self to bed.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-20 23:56:27.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: Oh, but I did say Mea Culpa to you. So, you go enjoy the blender, sir.

    The only time you said, "mea culpa" to me was long after you had been outted for making up shit and propagating a falsehood. Never mind the fact that you were being an outright douchebag.

    Kill yourself.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-20 23:57:31.0 login to vote score 2
    So to cap off the thread:

    Telling someone something that is not factually correct is a lie. If you are offended by this mere factual statement, you may at your discretion A> Be offended and/or B> refuse to acknowledge that simple fact.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-20 23:58:56.0 login to vote score 3
    pajamas: Well, that's probably the most offensive of all.


    Whatevs. I will take my know it all self to bed.


    i just typed the word "whatevs". I'm going shamefully to bed.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-20 23:59:37.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: What? Specious? How many points of comparison are needed between the "magical thinking" of Santa and the "Magical thinking" of religion before it's a real point, then? 20? 30?

    Well, Santa wears red and Jesus wore white. Santa likes the cold, Jesus likes it warm. Santa never dies, but Jesus took a dive. Santa never raised anyone from the dead or created the world - that was Jesus/God. Santa is married, Jesus never was. Santa drives a sleigh, Jesus walked. Santa doesn't have disciples, he has elves.

    I'm not trying to make fun, but seriously you can find points of comparison with many things that are ultimately unrelated. Yes, I understand what you're saying, and I don't even necessarily disagree. But that doesn't mean Santa HAS to be a gateway to religion. It just means there's a danger there to be addressed.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-20 23:59:52.0 login to vote score 3
    pajamas: Also. Santa Claus operates easily as a model for modern cultural theism. He is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved, who dispenses rewards and punishment to people all over the world based upon whether they adhere to a specific and rehearsed pre-defined code of conduct. Despite no real evidence existing and his behavior being implausible or impossible, faith is expected if you want to be rewarded.

    This is a dry run for adherence to Christianity. I don't understand how you can even argue it is not.


    It's a four year old child. You are arguing about telling an untruth to a being that at that stage in it's development still doesn't properly distinguish fact from fantasy. You are advocating something based on an adult understanding of the world. A child is not an adult, and to treat it like one is wrong. This is social correctness run completely amok. There is no benefit to teaching a four year old child that Santa is a lie. All it would do is estrange her from the festivities going on around her. An estrangement she wont understand since she is four years old.

    A four year old child does not have an adult morality. It can't, that hasn't developed yet. So your argument as to the morality is completely misplaced.

    The child can't properly understand that there is no santa, not when the culture around her, at large makes an effort to promote this fiction among the group. It is cruel to treat a preschooler as an adult and with adult conceits.

    Again I iterate. The child is four yers old, not an adoloscent, not an adult, but four years old. This is not the case of teaching a 12 year old about a 6000 year old earth or anything like that. It is a four year old child. Go look at what the cognitive milestones are for a four year old and then come tell me that the 'truth must out' as concerns Santa

    And yeah:

    pajamas: He is a nearly all-powerful, supernatural being, meant to be beloved, who dispenses rewards and punishment

    Yes. Because that is how four year olds conceptualise morality. This is not new, nor particularly controversial. Piaget and later Kohlberg defined it pretty well . In the the preoperative years, the child has a heteronomous morality, which requires authority figures. Everything you have been saying concerning morality and objective truth is simply not age-appropriate for a four year old child. Santa Claus is.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:00:21.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Well, that's probably the most offensive of all.


    Whatevs. I will take my know it all self to bed.


    That wasn't me, BTW. I don't generally post anon.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-21 00:00:55.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Well, that's pretty sad. I assume you grew out of it? (What am I saying? You're on bN - you obviously have no life.) ;)

    I have an amazing number of friends. It boggles my mind when I consider how many wonderful people are in my life compared to when I was a child.

    However, I AM unemployed right now so that's why I'm on bN at all hours.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:01:02.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: The only time you said, "mea culpa" to me was long after you had been outted for making up shit and propagating a falsehood. Never mind the fact that you were being an outright douchebag.

    Kill yourself.


    Butthurt? Sounds like it.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 00:02:08.0 login to vote score 2
    oh, and morning all :)
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 00:03:10.0 login to vote score -2
    paranoyd: Butthurt? Sounds like it.

    I'm simply calling you out as the douchebag liar that you are. Deal.
    submitter 10915 2011-12-21 00:05:33.0 login to vote score 1
    I've never forgiven my non-religious mother and father for participating in a familiar cultural tradition when I was a small child and giving me gifts while pretending it was a fat, bearded fuck who really did it.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-21 00:05:42.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: i just typed the word "whatevs". I'm going shamefully to bed.

    Leave the shame. Linguistic inhibitions have no more place in the bed than sexual ones. Indulge in colloquialisms as much as you like when you are sleep bound.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:06:51.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: I have an amazing number of friends. It boggles my mind when I consider how many wonderful people are in my life compared to when I was a child.

    However, I AM unemployed right now so that's why I'm on bN at all hours.


    I've been taking a break, but I had a down day today, so here I am, arguing for the right to be respected when I tell my child about Santa.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:08:16.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: I'm simply calling you out as the douchebag liar that you are. Deal.

    Ah, yes, the douchebag liar who perpetuated a lie for months after it was proven that the thing he was lying about was not what he said, but still never backed down from it ... no, wait ... that was YOU!
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:09:40.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: Leave the shame. Linguistic inhibitions have no more place in the bed than sexual ones. Indulge in colloquialisms as much as you like when you are sleep bound.

    It's a poor mind who can only figure one way to spell a word.

    ~ George Clinton
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 00:10:28.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Ah, yes, the douchebag liar who perpetuated a lie for months after it was proven that the thing he was lying about was not what he said, but still never backed down from it ... no, wait ... that was YOU!

    You're answering an unfounded false claim with another unfounded false claim. Given your poor memory in the least and complete lack of integrity, I wouldn't be whining here for respect. You have to earn that, and you haven't. Go soak.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:11:08.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: You're answering an unfounded false claim with another unfounded false claim. Given your poor memory in the least and complete lack of integrity, I wouldn't be whining here for respect. You have to earn that, and you haven't. Go soak.

    Have you been drinking?
    antialias 3250 2011-12-21 00:11:14.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: It's a poor mind who can only figure one way to spell a word.

    ~ George Clinton


    wat
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 00:11:41.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Have you been drinking?

    Derp.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:12:52.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: wat

    I don't know. Was that Mark Twain?
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:13:05.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Derp.

    I'll take that as a yes.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 00:14:35.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I'll take that as a yes.

    I wouldn't pretend to be able to stop you from leaping to false conclusions and then spewing them about as if they were true. You're spectacular when it comes to propagating lies.

    Again, please, kill yourself.
    sabine 745 2011-12-21 00:16:04.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: Again, please, kill yourself.

    Don't you think this is a wee bit of overkill?
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 00:17:05.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Don't you think this is a wee bit of overkill?

    Apparently not... ;)
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:17:33.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: I wouldn't pretend to be able to stop you from leaping to false conclusions and then spewing them about as if they were true. You're spectacular when it comes to propagating lies.

    Again, please, kill yourself.


    You first.
    antialias 3250 2011-12-21 00:18:51.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: I don't know. Was that Mark Twain?

    Yes, I got it. "I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way."

    Could have responded with some wordplay. I wasn't actually referring to Buddhist temples, you know.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:19:27.0 login to vote score 0
    antialias: Yes, I got it. "I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way."

    Could have responded with some wordplay. I wasn't actually referring to Buddhist temples, you know.


    DAMMIT! ;)
    submitter 10915 2011-12-21 00:24:15.0 login to vote score 1
    OK, let's start a new discussion. In an American society where the media has perpetuated the idea that child molesters and abductors are lurking around every corner turning many innocent men into victims of dirty looks and unfair assessments from neurotic and overprotective mothers, why are small children thrown onto the laps of old men with beards - facial hair is a prime indicator of pedo proclivities - who spend one month a year playing Santa and the remaining 11 months of the year looking like the guy who plays Santa?
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 00:26:52.0 login to vote score 1
    submitter: I've never forgiven my non-religious mother and father for participating in a familiar cultural tradition when I was a small child and giving me gifts while pretending it was a fat, bearded fuck who really did it.

    Meanwhile in Holland


    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 00:27:43.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Meanwhile in Holland

    Santa Pope?
    submitter 10915 2011-12-21 00:31:54.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Meanwhile in Holland

    Quite regal eyebrows.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 00:33:22.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Santa Pope?

    Bishop. St Nicholas was a bishop.
    sabine 745 2011-12-21 00:33:51.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Meanwhile in Holland

    Does Zwarte Piet cause some racial anxiety in SA?
    jeff73 6839 2011-12-21 00:34:35.0 login to vote score 0
    tagged: house niggelves
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 00:37:41.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: Does Zwarte Piet cause some racial anxiety in SA?

    We've never had Zwarte Piet in SA. The Afrikaans didn't adopt that particular piece of Dutch culture. Santa in SA is pretty much the same commercial Coca-cola Santa you have in the states.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 03:37:28.0 login to vote score 3
    paranoyd: No, sorry, it's not lying or deception.

    How, exactly, is telling someone something that's not true, and leading them to believe things that aren't true, not the very definition of lying and deception? I mean, I could understand if you were arguing that they were well-intentioned lies and deceptions, but to state that it's not a lie is, well, to deny the very definition of what a lie is. This perplexes me.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 04:00:20.0 login to vote score 0
    submitter: facial hair is a prime indicator of pedo proclivities

    Wait, what?
    vic rattlehead 1283 2011-12-21 04:55:05.0 login to vote score 1
    Wow, that deteriorated overnight.

    I'd say I'm shocked by the absolute refusal to engage logic but this is after all bN.

    When religion is but one of the huge lies in our society, it's amazing that it receives so much ire. You all seem perfectly willing to believe lies like "your vote counts" and "justice for all" which are even bigger lies than Santa Claus and way more dangerous.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 05:05:59.0 login to vote score 2
    vic rattlehead: When religion is but one of the huge lies in our society, it's amazing that it receives so much ire.

    I suspect that's because it is so often used as a justification for oppression.
    fallen from grace 5187 2011-12-21 05:07:40.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: Bishop. St Nicholas was a bishop.

    His bishopric was on Turkey's Lycian Coast. They grow hothouse tomatoes there in Myra these days. Here's his old church. Not seeing any elves. :)


    vic rattlehead 1283 2011-12-21 05:17:35.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: I suspect that's because it is so often used as a justification for oppression.

    No more than all the other lies used to control us. We accept lies as truth every day.

    The war on terror is just one of those lies. We live in a democracy is another. Justice another.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 05:25:57.0 login to vote score -1
    vic rattlehead: No more than all the other lies used to control us.

    And someone who dislikes lies used to control people will probably have a lot to say about all of these lies. Even the lies used to control children.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 05:33:08.0 login to vote score -1
    burntman: It's a four year old child. You are arguing about telling an untruth to a being that at that stage in it's development still doesn't properly distinguish fact from fantasy. You are advocating something based on an adult understanding of the world. A child is not an adult, and to treat it like one is wrong. This is social correctness run completely amok. There is no benefit to teaching a four year old child that Santa is a lie. All it would do is estrange her from the festivities going on around her. An estrangement she wont understand since she is four years old.

    A four year old child does not have an adult morality. It can't, that hasn't developed yet. So your argument as to the morality is completely misplaced.

    The child can't properly understand that there is no santa, not when the culture around her, at large makes an effort to promote this fiction among the group. It is cruel to treat a preschooler as an adult and with adult conceits.

    Again I iterate. The child is four yers old, not an adoloscent, not an adult, but four years old. This is not the case of teaching a 12 year old about a 6000 year old earth or anything like that. It is a four year old child. Go look at what the cognitive milestones are for a four year old and then come tell me that the 'truth must out' as concerns Santa

    And yeah:



    Yes. Because that is how four year olds conceptualise morality. This is not new, nor particularly controversial. Piaget and later Kohlberg defined it pretty well . In the the preoperative years, the child has a heteronomous morality, which requires authority figures. Everything you have been saying concerning morality and objective truth is simply not age-appropriate for a four year old child. Santa Claus is.


    By the age of 6 children are able to readily perceive the difference between fantasy and reality and should be encouraged to do that. More importantly, 4 year olds are beginning to sort objects into groups and this, coupled with the fact that they begin to (effectively) reason at this age creates a condition whereby they can be encouraged to begin to sort what can be reasoned through inference and what is oblique to their understanding- what is "magical".

    Everyone badly wants to make this about Paranoyd's 4 year old. I am desperate to see if it is possible to have this conversation outside of that personal place, as it applies to the lies we tell children as a rule.

    Nothing in the cognitive development of a child suggests that it is ever a good age to lie to them. There are truthful age appropriate responses available to us constantly. to say otherwise is misleading.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 05:38:43.0 login to vote score 1
    vic rattlehead: No more than all the other lies used to control us. We accept lies as truth every day.

    The war on terror is just one of those lies. We live in a democracy is another. Justice another.


    AFAIK, the only people telling us we live in a democracy are people who failed Civics class.
    jimmythehutt 2751 2011-12-21 05:41:09.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: AFAIK, the only people telling us we live in a democracy are people who failed Civics class.

    Or most mainstream news sources and pundits. :)
    Comments 401 through 500 of 1816 shown. Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    If you logged in, you could post here.