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  • The top 25 christian reactions to #GODISNOTGREAT



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  • Tagged with : beware the jabberwock , insatiable cock lust , phil quixote , remind them that rabb , santic bitches , threadnaught

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    Comments 701 through 800 of 1816 shown. Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
    shocker 99 2011-12-21 13:29:16.0 login to vote score 1


    I don't mean to derail this awesome thread you have going here, but honestly, I'm wondering if anyone else here is thinking about pajamas dressed up in a kinky Santa outfit.

    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:29:32.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Picasso didn't invent colors wtf?

    Of course not. He put them together in certain ways. But those ways were informed by how the colors compliment each other. It doesn't take away from the colors when he puts them together in a certain way - they still exist.

    My point was simply that sunsets exist regardless who or what you think made them. You can still enjoy them either way. I don't know how religion ruins that.
    so vote republican 6688 2011-12-21 13:29:58.0 login to vote score 0

    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:31:04.0 login to vote score 1
    shocker: I don't mean to derail this awesome thread you have going here, but honestly, I'm wondering if anyone else here is thinking about pajamas dressed up in a kinky Santa outfit.

    I am. I believe in that.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 13:31:24.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Of course not. He put them together in certain ways. But those ways were informed by how the colors compliment each other. It doesn't take away from the colors when he puts them together in a certain way - they still exist.

    My point was simply that sunsets exist regardless who or what you think made them. You can still enjoy them either way. I don't know how religion ruins that.


    I'd guess there is no "correct" perspective on that. Some people think that an all-mighty being creating the sun is just the tits. I personally believe that such a simplistic concept when compared to the still expanding actual knowledge we have on the subject pales by far.
    quinblake 1476 2011-12-21 13:31:56.0 login to vote score 3
    polydactylkatze: I know I wouldn't have been good at maintaining the conceit. I never have been. I'm the one who always ruins it for everyone, not even on purpose. Usually not on purpose.

    Yeah, I didn't keep it up for long. They probably weren't much past 5 years old by the time they figured it out and I didn't lie once they actually asked.
    Another "lie" that we used to use was when the older kid was playing on the NES we used to give the younger kid a matching controller, but it wasn't plugged in. She used to sit in her kidseat and "play" the game with her older sister.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 13:33:49.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Dawkins, in his childrens' book, makes a really good point about certain words like Magic. He outlines the difference between Harry Potter type magic, stage magic and poetical magic. There are some interesting consistencies between how they are approached and none are reliant on the others. I am a big supporter and fan of the second two types. They are real and wonderful.

    I agree. Life is full of great things without needing to manufacture falsehoods to put on others. I appreciated hitchen's argument about this issue.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 13:34:17.0 login to vote score 2
    pajamas: Me neither. Good.

    the first instance:

    pajamas: No one is insulting you but it is a fabrication that Santa Claus exists. it's a lie.

    A sentiment you have repeated throughout this thread.


    pajamas: Dawkins, in his childrens' book

    No. for fucks sake simply no. Dawkins book was not aimed at children under the age of 8. It couldn't be. To imply that anything Dawkins or Sagan said with regard to pedagogy is relevant to a 4 year old child is very dishonest. Stop bringing Dawkins up. No one is submitting that we encourage an 8 year old child to believe in santa.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 13:34:18.0 login to vote score 0
    shocker: I don't mean to derail this awesome thread you have going here, but honestly, I'm wondering if anyone else here is thinking about pajamas dressed up in a kinky Santa outfit.

    Most probably - and there's probably a few thinking about paranoyd dressed up as bondage-Santa, too*. To each their own :)

    [*] If there weren't before, there are now :)
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:35:55.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: I live in the south man. I hear about God's wonder every day. Nothing is beautiful that was not made so by God.

    I can understand that. I just don't know how it makes it less enjoyable to you.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 13:36:59.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: I can understand that. I just don't know how it makes it less enjoyable to you.

    Because it denies the true wonder. It cheapens it. For some magical superbeing to just think out some shit whole cloth denies the very reality we exist in.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 13:37:46.0 login to vote score 2
    pajamas: No one is insulting you but it is a fabrication that Santa Claus exists. it's a lie.

    burntman: A sentiment you have repeated throughout this thread.

    ...and we've looped back around for another trip 'round the circle. I can't really see any logical way to disagree with her statement here - to declare that it isn't a lie to try to convince someone of a falsehood is to deny the very meaning of the word "lie."
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:38:53.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman:
    A sentiment you have repeated throughout this thread.



    This sucks. It is a lie. It is expressing something to someone that is knowingly untrue. I can't even believe we are having this conversation. No one is calling anyone a liar but THIS IS A LIE.

    There are certain good reasons for telling a lie. The Anne Frank/Nazi agents at your door thought experiment is a good example. It's my suggestion here that a good reason to tell a lie must exist before I would support doing it. No one has presented one.

    Your insistence that there is no way to tell truths to children in an age appropriate way is just counter to reality. I'm sorry.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 13:39:03.0 login to vote score 1
    The idea that the Sun had no other choice but to be there, this planet was absolute. That there was no infinite assemblage of effects ranging across time and space culminating in now, but to say that some thing just wanted it to happen cheapens the wonder of us.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 13:39:23.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I can understand that. I just don't know how it makes it less enjoyable to you.

    Keep moving those goalposts.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 13:40:08.0 login to vote score 1
    submitter: I'll let burntman take it from here. He seems better able to articulate his objection to your stoney stance than I.

    I've just staggered into the house rather inebriated. Puppy and cats are fed. Fat George has vomited. (I have a fat bulimic cat) so yeah, all is good.

    It wouldn't be Christmas without a family fight, and to that end, sure, I'll be the drunk uncle who pisses on the Christmas tree. :)


    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:40:41.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Now you're trying to move goalposts. We were talking about explaining events in life and now you're trying to just say "appreciate."

    If you want to have your kid believ in Santa, go for it. But again, don't try to blow smoke up everyone's ass about magic.


    I was responding to appreciating the wonder around us. I don't see how a belief in Santa, or even religion, ruins that for someone. Seems to me that it's being presented there is only one right way to enjoy the grandiosity of life.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:40:52.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: ...and we've looped back around for another trip 'round the circle. I can't really see any logical way to disagree with her statement here - to declare that it isn't a lie to try to convince someone of a falsehood is to deny the very meaning of the word "lie."

    There is an emotional value to being labeled a "liar" that is out of synch with the real world implications of lying. There are instances where a lie is the most prudent and reasoned course of action. (If someone with a gun asks me if I like him) but telling a reasoned untruth in that case is not what the connotation of liar is.

    Paranoyd and burntman KNOW this. They are using the emotionally charged nature of the word as an offensive tactic. This is unfair.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 13:41:16.0 login to vote score 3
    surfnazi: The idea that the Sun had no other choice but to be there, this planet was absolute. That there was no infinite assemblage of effects ranging across time and space culminating in now, but to say that some thing just wanted it to happen cheapens the wonder of us.

    The irony is that falsehoods like "god" make the world less wonderful. The truth is more "magical" if I can use that term loosely here.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 13:42:42.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I was responding to appreciating the wonder around us. I don't see how a belief in Santa, or even religion, ruins that for someone. Seems to me that it's being presented there is only one right way to enjoy the grandiosity of life.

    You are talking about presenting a lie instead of the truth. That's not appreciating what around us. That's distorting reality and passing it off as fact.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:43:09.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: The irony is that falsehoods like "god" make the world less wonderful. The truth is more "magical" if I can use that term loosely here.

    We can use that term in the third sense that Dawkins described- in the sense of fostering poetical passions. In this respect, what you said is dead on.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 13:43:50.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: ...and we've looped back around for another trip 'round the circle. I can't really see any logical way to disagree with her statement here - to declare that it isn't a lie to try to convince someone of a falsehood is to deny the very meaning of the word "lie."

    Yes and a person who tells a lie is a liar, right? Words are value laden. When you use the word "lie", it means something more than simply an untruth, there is an inherent negative connotation.
    willywanka 274 2011-12-21 13:44:14.0 login to vote score 2
    sloth: So...anyway...
    Happy Solstice, everyone.


    Winter Says Hello to you too!



    /funny story, I was in our Stockholm office recently and we started discussing the different types of holiday greetings. They noted that "Season's Greetings" is a very English-speaking oriented phrase, as a lot of other languages (including Swedish) wouldn't really translate it correctly, so it would come out sounding like "The winter gives it's regards"
    willywanka 274 2011-12-21 13:45:22.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: You are talking about presenting a lie instead of the truth. That's not appreciating what around us. That's distorting reality and passing it off as fact.

    We already have enough of this in the political threads.
    polydactylkatze 641 2011-12-21 13:45:45.0 login to vote score 0
    quinblake: Yeah, I didn't keep it up for long. They probably weren't much past 5 years old by the time they figured it out and I didn't lie once they actually asked.
    Another "lie" that we used to use was when the older kid was playing on the NES we used to give the younger kid a matching controller, but it wasn't plugged in. She used to sit in her kidseat and "play" the game with her older sister.


    Funny, I have no issue with the controller trick. Maybe because it's not based in pure fantasy.

    There are better words for what I mean here, I just can't come up with them.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:45:56.0 login to vote score 0
    Since this is an area of dispute:

    Telling a lie does not make you a liar. The word "liar" has a negative connotation and will presumably continue to have one. There are often very good reasons to express an untruth (like, for example, if you are acting, or dealing with immoral agents and protecting a person, or safeguarding a secret that is vital to the welfare of people you care about) and to lie in this instance is NOT what is expressly meant by ANYONE when using the word "liar".

    In this thread, no one has been called a liar. Some misrepresentations of truth have been called what they are: lies.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:46:34.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: I'd guess there is no "correct" perspective on that. Some people think that an all-mighty being creating the sun is just the tits. I personally believe that such a simplistic concept when compared to the still expanding actual knowledge we have on the subject pales by far.

    And I wouldn't disagree with you.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 13:46:40.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: The irony is that falsehoods like "god" make the world less wonderful. The truth is more "magical" if I can use that term loosely here.

    If I wanted to be offensive I would say that God is wonderful enough for stupid people.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:47:33.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Yes and a person who tells a lie is a liar, right? Words are value laden.

    Exactly. They are value laden. And you understand that. Which is why I know that you understand that the word "liar" is not meant to connote someone who expresses an untruth in a situation for the purpose of an expansive good. There is an emotional value to the word ;liar no one in this thread was called a liar.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 13:48:03.0 login to vote score 0
    Wow that came out even more offensive than I intended.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:48:14.0 login to vote score 0
    bad punctuation in the extreme.
    quinblake 1476 2011-12-21 13:49:55.0 login to vote score 0
    polydactylkatze: Funny, I have no issue with the controller trick. Maybe because it's not based in pure fantasy.

    There are better words for what I mean here, I just can't come up with them.


    In my mind it was a similar lie to the santa thing. If kid #2 knew the truth she wouldn't have had as much fun sitting on the floor with her older sister. And I wouldn't have had a chance to get any laundry done or go out the back door for a quick smoke.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:49:56.0 login to vote score 0
    polydactylkatze: Funny, I have no issue with the controller trick. Maybe because it's not based in pure fantasy.

    There are better words for what I mean here, I just can't come up with them.


    I would argue that this is not a lie at all, but parallel symbolic play much like what happens when you give a child a play vacuum cleaner and they "clean" with you.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:49:59.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Keep moving those goalposts.

    wat
    willywanka 274 2011-12-21 13:50:24.0 login to vote score 1
    shocker: I don't mean to derail this awesome thread you have going here, but honestly, I'm wondering if anyone else here is thinking about pajamas dressed up in a kinky Santa outfit.

    "Boop bee doop be boop boop sex."


    sloth 222 2011-12-21 13:52:02.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Yes and a person who tells a lie is a liar, right? Words are value laden. When you use the word "lie", it means something more than simply an untruth, there is an inherent negative connotation.

    This may be more of a cultural thing. I'd say that certainly calling someone a liar would generally be fighting words, but noting that someone has told a white lie, or constructive lie, etc. would generally not be viewed as offensive. It's all in the context.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 13:52:58.0 login to vote score 2
    pajamas: Paranoyd and burntman KNOW this. They are using the emotionally charged nature of the word as an offensive tactic. This is unfair.

    Actually, I apologise for that, that was unfair on my part. So sorry, I do fully accept that you used the word lie on it's prima facie definition. Again my apologies and you are totally right for calling me out on that. It was a cheap shot.

    That said. I still do hold that you are very wrong in trying to decry santa based on the fact that he is not real. To that end you do have to address the very salient issues that:

    1. A four year old child is unable to differentiate between fact and fantasy, making your insistence on 'truth' redundant.

    2. it is a cultural norm that is widely celebrated and to exclude a 4 year old child from that is especially cruel given that a 4 year old child cannot possibly conceptualise the reasoning.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 13:54:25.0 login to vote score 0
    quinblake: Yeah, I didn't keep it up for long. They probably weren't much past 5 years old by the time they figured it out and I didn't lie once they actually asked.

    After a certain age - I think 6 - I would let her in on the Big Reveal if she asked. I'm not going to let it get weird.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 13:55:58.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: wat

    Again, you've shifted from telling an untruth about something to saying that we should be able to just appreciate it.

    Many myths were formulated in an attempt to explain real things. Alternately, they were used to control people.
    quinblake 1476 2011-12-21 13:58:18.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: After a certain age - I think 6 - I would let her in on the Big Reveal if she asked. I'm not going to let it get weird.

    Once they started going to school with kids who had older siblings they got told. Like how they sometimes get details about "where babies come from" before they hear it from their parents. I still recall my first kid asking me "does it click in like a seatbelt?"
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 13:59:07.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: After a certain age - I think 6 - I would let her in on the Big Reveal if she asked. I'm not going to let it get weird.

    It is about 6 that a child starts properly differentiating between fact and fantasy. That's why we send them to school round about that time.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 13:59:36.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman:

    1. A four year old child is unable to differentiate between fact and fantasy, making your insistence on 'truth' redundant.

    2. it is a cultural norm that is widely celebrated and to exclude a 4 year old child from that is especially cruel given that a 4 year old child cannot possibly conceptualise the reasoning.


    1. It is rare that the Santa mythos extends only up to the age of 4. It is an ongoing untruth that is perpetrated through, literally, hundreds of small lies over the course of years, often extending past 10 years of age, during periods when childhood cognition is fully capable of discerning the difference between fantasy and reality. At the same time this model- control through untruths- does not end at Santa Claus but is represented across a wide range of other lies i take issue to , some I detailed in this thread. The policy and habit of lying children when no good reason exists to do so is something I disagree with.

    2. If i had not been raised without a Santa Claus myth i would possibly agree. I was told that Santa Claus is something that some kids thought was a real person and that it was okay to let them think that. My boyfriends' kids were taught the same.

    Universally it will be easier to lie to children. It will make their lives, possibly, easier, as they do not have to expend the effort thinking at some times, just blindly follow the weight of imaginary authority. It will give parents more control over children. I think that these are bad reasons to engage in a falsehood and would choose, over and over again, not to. Especially when it appears that a subscription to magical thinking may well be a widespread cultural problem that extends long past the toddler years.


    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:00:20.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Alternately, they were used to control people.

    Repeating for truth.
    sloth 222 2011-12-21 14:00:31.0 login to vote score 1
    quinblake: Once they started going to school with kids who had older siblings they got told. Like how they sometimes get details about "where babies come from" before they hear it from their parents. I still recall my first kid asking me "does it click in like a seatbelt?"

    Well, honey, sometimes when two people love their genital accessories very much, those accessories can lock together. And, indeed, sometimes this clicks, like a seatbelt, but with rather more awkward consequences.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:01:27.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: It is about 6 that a child starts properly differentiating between fact and fantasy. That's why we send them to school round about that time.

    yes. Around then. You will find that the Santa myth extends far past the age of 6 very often.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:01:28.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Actually, I apologise for that, that was unfair on my part. So sorry, I do fully accept that you used the word lie on it's prima facie definition. Again my apologies and you are totally right for calling me out on that. It was a cheap shot.

    That said. I still do hold that you are very wrong in trying to decry santa based on the fact that he is not real. To that end you do have to address the very salient issues that:

    1. A four year old child is unable to differentiate between fact and fantasy, making your insistence on 'truth' redundant.

    2. it is a cultural norm that is widely celebrated and to exclude a 4 year old child from that is especially cruel given that a 4 year old child cannot possibly conceptualise the reasoning.


    I guess this is one of those times where not being educated leaves me in the shallow end of the conversation. It's always been my understanding that, when you say someone is regularly lying to someone about something - i.e. telling a child there is a Santa for a number of years - you are calling them a liar. I'm not entirely sure anyone I know, educated or not, would disagree with that, but I forget about the pedantic nature of the Internet, so I will bow to your example and explanation and say I guess PJ was not calling me a liar, specifically, but just saying that a parent who presents Santa as real ritualistically, enthusiastically, and knowingly lies to their child, but is not a liar.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:01:44.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Well, honey, sometimes when two people love their genital accessories very much, those accessories can lock together. And, indeed, sometimes this clicks, like a seatbelt, but with rather more awkward consequences.

    8/10 hot.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:02:15.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: Again, you've shifted from telling an untruth about something to saying that we should be able to just appreciate it.

    Many myths were formulated in an attempt to explain real things. Alternately, they were used to control people.


    Yes. And? How does that address the idea that someone praising God for a thing removes your enjoyment of it?
    someone who may or may not be just askin' 2011-12-21 14:02:44.0 login to vote score 0
    Is it OK for us to ask mutilato to come out from behind the loose-fitting curtain now and talk to us with his own screen name?
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 14:02:54.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I guess this is one of those times where not being educated leaves me in the shallow end of the conversation. It's always been my understanding that, when you say someone is regularly lying to someone about something - i.e. telling a child there is a Santa for a number of years - you are calling them a liar. I'm not entirely sure anyone I know, educated or not, would disagree with that, but I forget about the pedantic nature of the Internet, so I will bow to your example and explanation and say I guess PJ was not calling me a liar, specifically, but just saying that a parent who presents Santa as real ritualistically, enthusiastically, and knowingly lies to their child, but is not a liar.

    You have to be able to acknowledge the difference between saying someone told a lie, and calling someone a liar. A lie is one lie. It is assumed a liar tells many.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:03:42.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: yes. Around then. You will find that the Santa myth extends far past the age of 6 very often.

    I don't think it really does. See antialias' comment about professing a belief for more presents. And then she felt bad about it. She was able to develop critical thinking and evaluating skill and a burgeoning conscience.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:05:03.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Yes. And? How does that address the idea that someone praising God for a thing removes your enjoyment of it?

    The "enjoyment" is irrelevant and your attempt to move goalposts. That's the problem. You're trying to steer away from the core issue, which is whether telling kids that Santa is real is a lie or not.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:05:32.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: I guess this is one of those times where not being educated leaves me in the shallow end of the conversation. It's always been my understanding that, when you say someone is regularly lying to someone about something - i.e. telling a child there is a Santa for a number of years - you are calling them a liar. I'm not entirely sure anyone I know, educated or not, would disagree with that, but I forget about the pedantic nature of the Internet, so I will bow to your example and explanation and say I guess PJ was not calling me a liar, specifically, but just saying that a parent who presents Santa as real ritualistically, enthusiastically, and knowingly lies to their child, but is not a liar.

    Words have a denotation- what it is they actually mean in the dictionary sense, and a connotation- what they imply culturally. We don't get to, as individuals, determine either one. The English Language allows these to shift through use. Sometimes the Denotative and Connotative shift for a word will take different pathways.

    In this case, there is a clear denotation to the word "lie" and a denotation to the word "liar". Liar would be defined as someone who consistently lies. Here we have some divergence already. A Liar ALWAYS lies- (this many be connotative).

    Liar, however, has a more demanding connotation insomuch as it doesn't seem to allow room for white lies, cultural lies, lies of no consequence. The word "Lie" seems less encumbered by those connotations and can encompass all lies, small to large.

    Saying that something is a lie is not equitable to calling the person who disseminated the statement a liar.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:06:51.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: You have to be able to acknowledge the difference between saying someone told a lie, and calling someone a liar. A lie is one lie. It is assumed a liar tells many.

    The way PJs presented her argument, it was assumed (apparently, wrongly) that she was saying a child who is told there is a Santa is lied to on a regular basis by their parents. My assertion that my child knows about science and that this is the one fantastical thing I profess was met with "It's a lie" and no acknowledgement of any of the other profound and important truths I tell her. That's my main issue with this - condemnation without acknowledgment of the other. I've told her this more than a couple of times.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:06:53.0 login to vote score 0
    Or that god created everything. Telling a child that is the right of a parent, but a parent that knowingly tells a falsehood like that is lying. And I don't think it serves any good for the kid.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:07:30.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: The "enjoyment" is irrelevant and your attempt to move goalposts. That's the problem. You're trying to steer away from the core issue, which is whether telling kids that Santa is real is a lie or not.

    No, I was addressing a divergent topic.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:09:28.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: I would argue that this is not a lie at all, but parallel symbolic play much like what happens when you give a child a play vacuum cleaner and they "clean" with you.

    In looking through parenting sites, it seems that 9 is about the cut off.

    This article is interesting:

    http://family.go.com/parenting/pkg-school-age/article-796449-the-santa-myth-t/
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:10:02.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Words have a denotation- what it is they actually mean in the dictionary sense, and a connotation- what they imply culturally. We don't get to, as individuals, determine either one. The English Language allows these to shift through use. Sometimes the Denotative and Connotative shift for a word will take different pathways.

    In this case, there is a clear denotation to the word "lie" and a denotation to the word "liar". Liar would be defined as someone who consistently lies. Here we have some divergence already. A Liar ALWAYS lies- (this many be connotative).

    Liar, however, has a more demanding connotation insomuch as it doesn't seem to allow room for white lies, cultural lies, lies of no consequence. The word "Lie" seems less encumbered by those connotations and can encompass all lies, small to large.

    Saying that something is a lie is not equitable to calling the person who disseminated the statement a liar.


    I would say it's not so clear, actually, to most people. But I'm going to take your word for it.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:10:50.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: The way PJs presented her argument, it was assumed (apparently, wrongly) that she was saying a child who is told there is a Santa is lied to on a regular basis by their parents.

    Where did I say that? The closest is where I made it clear that one of my problems with the Santa Myth is that it is not one lie but a comprehensive campaign of lies perpetrated by not just parents but other family members for years in complex ways.

    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:11:06.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: No, I was addressing a divergent topic.

    You were moving goalposts.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 14:11:15.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: The way PJs presented her argument, it was assumed (apparently, wrongly) that she was saying a child who is told there is a Santa is lied to on a regular basis by their parents. My assertion that my child knows about science and that this is the one fantastical thing I profess was met with "It's a lie" and no acknowledgement of any of the other profound and important truths I tell her. That's my main issue with this - condemnation without acknowledgment of the other. I've told her this more than a couple of times.

    I never got that impression, then again I didn't read every post. I mean it's a factual statement. Santa is not human, does not live at the North Pole, and does not bring presents. That has nothing at all to do with the metaphorical man's representing the spirit of blahblahwhatever. That is the Santa I would tell my child about, and appreciate that children are the kings of anthropomorphism already.
    jeff73 6839 2011-12-21 14:11:44.0 login to vote score 3
    shocker: I don't mean to derail this awesome thread you have going here,

    It's unstoppable!


    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:11:55.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: I would say it's not so clear, actually, to most people. But I'm going to take your word for it.

    No one called you a liar. The tiring part of this, however, is your insistence that this conversation can't be had objectively, in the abstract, without offending you. That is obstructive and unfair.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 14:12:26.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: You were moving goalposts.

    Nah I was interjecting my butt because the actual discussion is dumb and has gone on too long for it to still be about the same thing.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:14:33.0 login to vote score 2
    pajamas: 1. It is rare that the Santa mythos extends only up to the age of 4.

    No, it would probably extend to about 6 or 7, Ie when the child starts learning to properly differentiate between fact and fantasy. Again, go look at Piaget, or any of his successors. I am not aware of anyone disputing the cognitive abilities of a child in its 'play years'. Should you have any contemporary theories contesting that I would be most interested to see them.

    pajamas: If i had not been raised without a Santa Claus myth i would possibly agree.

    Santa Claus, the Boogey Man, the coco, the tokoloshe etc. etc.

    The the list is endless and evident in almost every culture.

    However, I do know how old you are and I do know where you were born. If you tell me that you had no cultural myths as a child I can well believe you, since that was indeed in accordance with the overarching socio-political ideals at the time. If that is the case, I can't think of anything else other than to offer you my sympathies, and please, that is really not meant to be condescending or construed as anything disparaging. I just honestly do hold that a rich childhood is a fanciful childhood.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:15:23.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: No one called you a liar. The tiring part of this, however, is your insistence that this conversation can't be had objectively, in the abstract, without offending you. That is obstructive and unfair.

    Don't worry as he is quick to falsely call other people liars.
    code_7 6865 2011-12-21 14:17:06.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: I was, at that point, defending direct accusations that by NOT delivering the Santa Message to kids I was robbing them of their magic.

    Well, I haven't read the entire thread either but feel the need to interject my personal info here...

    When my sons asked their mom if santa was real, she straight up told them "no" specifically because she did feel weird looking into their eyes and lying to them.
    so vote republican 6688 2011-12-21 14:17:21.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Well, honey, sometimes when two people love their genital accessories very much, those accessories can lock together. And, indeed, sometimes this clicks, like a seatbelt, but with rather more awkward consequences.

    And sometimes, when a Mommy and Daddy love each other very much, the Daddy has Mommy dress up in leather and makes her fuck the dog.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:18:00.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: No, it would probably extend to about 6 or 7, Ie when the child starts learning to properly differentiate between fact and fantasy. Again, go look at Piaget, or any of his successors. I am not aware of anyone disputing the cognitive abilities of a child in its 'play years'. Should you have any contemporary theories contesting that I would be most interested to see them.



    Santa Claus, the Boogey Man, the coco, the tokoloshe etc. etc.

    The the list is endless and evident in almost every culture.

    However, I do know how old you are and I do know where you were born. If you tell me that you had no cultural myths as a child I can well believe you, since that was indeed in accordance with the overarching socio-political ideals at the time. If that is the case, I can't think of anything else other than to offer you my sympathies, and please, that is really not meant to be condescending or construed as anything disparaging. I just honestly do hold that a rich childhood is a fanciful childhood.


    My research on the ages when children leave the "Santa Mythos" years is that about 9 is average. Yours may differ.

    And my childhood was full of magic and imagination. So is the childhood of my boyfriend's children, both raised without a Santa mythos. They are smart and edgy and funny and imaginative and have no problem entertaining fantastical ideas (One is an amazing writer and the other is a beautiful artist. Both are musicians)

    I don't see what benefit might have been had from him perpetuating an untruth. I suppose I will say THIS again:

    The world is full to the top with REAL magic (in the poetic sense)
    submitter 10915 2011-12-21 14:19:14.0 login to vote score 1
    It is a shame mutilato isn't here. It would be fun to see which flaccid argument untrustworthy would take up between the one presented by mutilato and the one presented by paranoyd, regardless of whether or not he believed it at all.
    quinblake 1476 2011-12-21 14:19:15.0 login to vote score 3
    so vote republican: And sometimes, when a Mommy and Daddy love each other very much, the Daddy has Mommy dress up in leather and makes her fuck the dog.

    No reason to lie to the kid.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:22:54.0 login to vote score 1
    paranoyd: and explanation and say I guess PJ was not calling me a liar

    meh, she wasn't really. She was saying that telling a kid that santa exists is a lie, and yeah it is. We know santa doesn't exist. The word lie does carry negative connotations and we could be pedantic about it, but that's pretty boring, and FWIW I really don't think pajamas meant to insult you.

    My argument is that pajamas seems to think it's wrong to lie to a preschooler. I submit that that idea is based on adult notions and adult precepts and is wholly ignorant of what a preschooler is and a preschoolers cognitive abilities.

    So yeah, you lie to the child, of course you do, if nothing else than for the simple fact that they are incapable of discerning between reality and fantasy and to try force them to do so is grossly unfair on the,m. You would be asking a child to do a very adult thing. The child simply can't.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:23:39.0 login to vote score 0

    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:26:48.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: The world is full to the top with REAL magic (in the poetic sense)

    No, no it's not. To discern that 'real magic' of which you speak takes years of cultivation. Tell me that the average guy punching steel on a factory floor thinks life is magical. Again, you are imposing your own conceits on others. The world is not you, for better or for worse, it's not.
    so vote republican 6688 2011-12-21 14:28:56.0 login to vote score 1
    I've heard similar arguments about "leashing" children.

    We had one of these for our kid:



    The youngest LOVED to run off. She also LOVED to wear "monkey backpack".

    When we were in airports or other high-traffic areas, she wore the thing because she was not capable of making rational choices regarding her behavior.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:29:18.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: No, no it's not. To discern that 'real magic' of which you speak takes years of cultivation. Tell me that the average guy punching steel on a factory floor thinks life is magical. Again, you are imposing your own conceits on others. The world is not you, for better or for worse, it's not.

    You don't have to be an intellectual to see "magic" in the world.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:31:02.0 login to vote score 0
    quinblake: So is the childhood of my boyfriend's children, both raised without a Santa mythos. They are smart and edgy and funny and imaginative and have no problem entertaining fantastical ideas (One is an amazing writer and the other is a beautiful artist. Both are musicians)

    Ok, you've brought up mutilatos kids more than once in this thread. My retort to that is this: Why would the fact children can manage without the mythos be any sort of argument for discarding the mythos? Are you submitting children who believe in santa are somehow disadvantaged later in life? I'd really like some sauce on that pasta if that's the case.
    surfnazi 932 2011-12-21 14:31:55.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Ok, you've brought up mutilatos kids more than once in this thread. My retort to that is this: Why would the fact children can manage without the mythos be any sort of argument for discarding the mythos? Are you submitting children who believe in santa are somehow disadvantaged later in life? I'd really like some sauce on that pasta if that's the case.

    No one is suggesting to disgard the mythos, unless it really is hinged on the man being a living breathing person.
    so vote republican 6688 2011-12-21 14:32:37.0 login to vote score 2
    untrustworthy: You don't have to be an intellectual to see "magic" in the world.


    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:33:06.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: No, no it's not. To discern that 'real magic' of which you speak takes years of cultivation. Tell me that the average guy punching steel on a factory floor thinks life is magical. Again, you are imposing your own conceits on others. The world is not you, for better or for worse, it's not.

    Sorry, but yes, it is. And it's worth it to start early to recognize it.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:33:48.0 login to vote score 0
    untrustworthy: You don't have to be an intellectual to see "magic" in the world.

    No. certainly not. And for a huge segment of the worlds population that 'magic' is found under the auspices of religion.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:36:35.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Ok, you've brought up mutilatos kids more than once in this thread. My retort to that is this: Why would the fact children can manage without the mythos be any sort of argument for discarding the mythos? Are you submitting children who believe in santa are somehow disadvantaged later in life? I'd really like some sauce on that pasta if that's the case.

    I have because I think it's annoying that people have alternately felt bad for them, felt like they were robbed, pitied them uncontrollably or wished they could have been better off without anyone here knowing them.

    The fact that children come out just fine without the mythos is my response to the fact that you all seem to think that this lie is neccessary in order for kids to have some sense of wonder. It's not. And that there are no age appropriate truths. There are.

    My point at top was that, all things being equal, there are reasons to subscribe to the truth, to eschew lying. In my mind there must be a good reason to lie. There seems to be none here.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:38:14.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: No. certainly not. And for a huge segment of the worlds population that 'magic' is found under the auspices of religion.

    And, again, if I go back to that first chapter of Sagan's book. It is a beautiful chapter that made the case that this person was looking for magic, for wonder, for imaginative excitement. And the people around him let him down by feeding him untruths and myths.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:38:30.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: Sorry, but yes, it is. And it's worth it to start early to recognize it.

    sorry, I don't follow your reply. What is? The world is filled with real magic? Well I agree, however it's only magic if there's a subjective sense of wonderment. You're not going to propose that people are intrinsically predisposed to being enthralled by workings of the natural world?
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:42:23.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: sorry, I don't follow your reply. What is? The world is filled with real magic? Well I agree, however it's only magic if there's a subjective sense of wonderment. You're not going to propose that people are intrinsically predisposed to being enthralled by workings of the natural world?

    I misspoke. The world is filled with things- real things, that are capable of producing a sense of wonder and magic in the observer, provided the user is primed to pay attention and notice them.
    willywanka 274 2011-12-21 14:45:34.0 login to vote score 2

    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:46:51.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: I have because I think it's annoying that people have alternately felt bad for them, felt like they were robbed, pitied them uncontrollably or wished they could have been better off without anyone here knowing them.

    no. simply no. Now you are being terribly dishonest. No one has said or even implied that a child must be taught about santa. You raised the opposition to the idea of santa, no one ever said anything even implying the converse.

    No one has said a child has to learn about santa. The only objection has been to your decrying the idea of santa.

    My objection in particular being that:

    1. Your objection is wholly ignorant of the cognitive state of a preschooler

    2. It is a rejection by proxy of a cultural norm, and accordingly my vehement objection to the fact that a child, who cannot properly understand the motivations, is being used as the proxy.
    quinblake 1476 2011-12-21 14:47:42.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Ok, you've brought up mutilatos kids more than once in this thread. My retort to that is this: Why would the fact children can manage without the mythos be any sort of argument for discarding the mythos? Are you submitting children who believe in santa are somehow disadvantaged later in life? I'd really like some sauce on that pasta if that's the case.

    That's weird. That wasn't my post, it was pajamas'.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:49:53.0 login to vote score 1
    pajamas: I misspoke. The world is filled with things- real things, that are capable of producing a sense of wonder and magic in the observer, provided the user is primed to pay attention and notice them.

    yes, and that wonder of which you speak is not available to a preschooler, they simply cannot do it. When the child reaches 8 or 9 or 10 or whatever the case may be, then it is indeed good and proper to encourage that. At 4 years old, then I submit that a hefty dose of cookies, milk and Santa Claus are very much in order at this time of year.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:52:00.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: no. simply no. Now you are being terribly dishonest. No one has said or even implied that a child must be taught about santa. You raised the opposition to the idea of santa, no one ever said anything even implying the converse.

    No one has said a child has to learn about santa. The only objection has been to your decrying the idea of santa.

    My objection in particular being that:

    1. Your objection is wholly ignorant of the cognitive state of a preschooler

    2. It is a rejection by proxy of a cultural norm, and accordingly my vehement objection to the fact that a child, who cannot properly understand the motivations, is being used as the proxy.


    I raised the opposition to disseminating untruths. Santa was the card played. And you did it yourself, feeling sorry for them:
    burntman: If that is the case, I can't think of anything else other than to offer you my sympathies, and please, that is really not meant to be condescending or construed as anything disparaging. I just honestly do hold that a rich childhood is a fanciful childhood.

    I think you should keep your sympathies. Imagination is not only engaged by being coerced to BELIEVE something. But being exposed to ideas, concepts, play.

    1. No. a 4 year old is incapable of discerning between fantasy and reality, for the most part and in most cases. A 6 year old is capable. From my investigations, the Santa Mythos tends to extend from earliest age to about 9. I am very familiar with the cognitive capabilities of children. I do not think that it can be said that there is no way to tell them truths in an age appropriate way.

    2. Yes, I will reject some cultural norms that I think are stupid. I hope you will disengage your fear of that and recognize that a cultural norm is not necessarily a good thing, it just is.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:52:12.0 login to vote score 0
    quinblake: That's weird. That wasn't my post, it was pajamas'.

    shit, sorry, that's the second time I've done that. I did the exact same thing to surfnazi earlier in this thread. That is weird.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:52:43.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: yes, and that wonder of which you speak is not available to a preschooler, they simply cannot do it.

    And I disagree. There are age appropriate ways to deliver truths. It is not essential to rely on untruths.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:53:51.0 login to vote score 0
    In fact, as I was attempting to point out, there are examples of children that were not lied to about this subject who seem to be growing up just fine.
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:56:41.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: No. certainly not. And for a huge segment of the worlds population that 'magic' is found under the auspices of religion.

    Sure enough. And I wouldn't try to deny anyone their right to religious beliefs. Lots of people really do believe in a rigion and find comfort I. It.

    However, that's a bit different from knowing that a story is false and then passing it off to others as being true. That's promoting a lie, whether one has well meaning intentions or not.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:57:07.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: I raised the opposition to disseminating untruths. Santa was the card played. And you did it yourself, feeling sorry for them:

    Bullshit. The most I've said in terms of sorry is for you being born in communist Ukraine with the soviet emphasis on stark realism. I certainly have not said anything along the lines that a child is worse off for not having been told about santa.

    And fuck that, I openly defy you to find any post where I claim that a child is disadvantaged by not being told about santa. Go on.
    pajamas 7950 2011-12-21 14:58:10.0 login to vote score 1
    untrustworthy: Sure enough. And I wouldn't try to deny anyone their right to religious beliefs. Lots of people really do believe in a rigion and find comfort I. It.

    However, that's a bit different from knowing that a story is false and then passing it off to others as being true. That's promoting a lie, whether one has well meaning intentions or not.


    And, just so it's understood, we all recognize people have a right to that as well. But I do think that some people who do NOT agree that this is the right approach, should have a right to that position, too.
    paranoyd 6555 2011-12-21 14:58:36.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: meh, she wasn't really. She was saying that telling a kid that santa exists is a lie, and yeah it is. We know santa doesn't exist. The word lie does carry negative connotations and we could be pedantic about it, but that's pretty boring, and FWIW I really don't think pajamas meant to insult you.

    My argument is that pajamas seems to think it's wrong to lie to a preschooler. I submit that that idea is based on adult notions and adult precepts and is wholly ignorant of what a preschooler is and a preschoolers cognitive abilities.

    So yeah, you lie to the child, of course you do, if nothing else than for the simple fact that they are incapable of discerning between reality and fantasy and to try force them to do so is grossly unfair on the,m. You would be asking a child to do a very adult thing. The child simply can't.


    I don't think she meant to be insulting, no, and at the beginning I did try to explain that it wasn't the argument, it was the presentation.
    willywanka 274 2011-12-21 14:58:39.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Bullshit. The most I've said in terms of sorry is for you being born in communist Ukraine with the soviet emphasis on stark realism. I certainly have not said anything along the lines that a child is worse off for not having been told about santa.

    And fuck that, I openly defy you to find any post where I claim that a child is disadvantaged by not being told about santa. Go on.


    Santa is a socialist.
    burntman 1528 2011-12-21 14:59:13.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: And I disagree. There are age appropriate ways to deliver truths. It is not essential to rely on untruths.

    Wait. A preschooler does not properly differentiate between reality and fiction. How is 'truth' of any importance?
    untrustworthy 1 2011-12-21 14:59:54.0 login to vote score 0
    pajamas: In fact, as I was attempting to point out, there are examples of children that were not lied to about this subject who seem to be growing up just fine.

    This is an interesting point, IMO. Because we often see the status quo as the best way, when it often just isn't true. Just because Santa is a cultural icon (and a very commercial one at that) certainly doesn mean we are cheating children by letting them know the truth.

    In thinking about the stories we tell about Santa, it can e disheartening particularly for kids o poor families who are sometimes left to wonder what they did wrong or why Santa doesn love them when they get little to nothing for Christmas.
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