Ya think?

elebrin: If something bad happens to me, I'd probably rather just die anyways... I have seen men living a life on their knees and I am pretty sure I don't want to live that way.

When I looked into it, that's what it would have cost me. $900 a month was the cheapest I could find. I am a 28 year old non-smoker, drink occasionally, and visit doctors less then once every five years (never, if I have any say in the matter).

I find that difficult to believe. I smoke and am over 40 and my individual premium was quoted at less than that in California, no less, by Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

phil_herup: Maybe they will. Right now Obamacare is the law. We need to get rid of that first.

why get rid of it? Why not use it as a starting point?

stop living your black & white life, jump into the warm squishy gray area.. it's fun in here!

baron muchhumpin: why get rid of it? Why not use it as a starting point?

stop living your black & white life, jump into the warm squishy gray area.. it's fun in here!

It's phail's job to be a rightwing asshole. What you're asking him to do is akin to asking a plumber to stop doing plumbing.

blandly pompous: There are needs and wants. For wants, the market works great. Want a bigger TV or anything else you can live without, the market is great at providing those things. For needs, the things you can't live without, the market is about the worst way to provide those things.

I dunno, clothing, shelter, and food are much more basic needs than advanced health-care, and those are handled well by the market. Maybe, and I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe "the market" isn't the problem, so much as the bizarre hoops we have set up that greatly inflate medical costs and then force you to use a plan chosen by either your employer or your State legislature. As I've pointed out before, France's system is much more market-driven than is ours, and it seems to do a much better job of delivering health-care solutions in most cases.

baron muchhumpin: just so we're clear on this:

At 28 years old you'd rather DIE than have healthcare options available to you?

If that isn't a poster child of why we need reform I don't know what is

He's also the poster-boy for what happens when you catch the catapult's load of propaganda ;^D


elebrin: I can't afford insurance right now, and I can't imagine the cost going down.

I seem to remember you saying that you had all kinds of insurance privately such that you didn't need any government plan.

And oddly enough, you've been saying this exact quote elebrin: Yup, and god forbid if you can't afford the $900 a month for health insurance you get fined and thrown in prison. for three years, no matter how many times you've been told:

it's group insurance, not individual (see "pooling")
the fine is phased in
AFAIK, no one's going to prison over it.

So, why is it that you keep repeating your "$900 woe is me" meme when it's clearly not true?

blandly pompous: It's phail's job to be a rightwing asshole. What you're asking him to do is akin to asking a plumber to stop doing plumbing.

it really depends on WHO the plumber is - some of the time it's ok to plumb

swingingjohnson: For what Phil said.

Qualified to be the best they got.

Hmmm...

I can't say he'd be more qualified than Bush41

baron muchhumpin: it really depends on WHO the plumber is - some of the time it's ok to plumb

As long as the plumber isn't the WHO, that is.

baron muchhumpin:
If that isn't a poster child of why we need reform I don't know what is

Believe it or not, my opinions have nothing to do with healthcare. I'd feel that way if every medical procedure conceivable to man, invented or uninvented, were available to me right now. I am not going to go through life deaf, blind, missing limbs, unable to speak, unable to think clearly, attached to machines and dependent on them to stay alive, or scarred to the point that I don't even look human any more. I don't want to live that way and it doesn't have a damned thing to do with money.

What I am saying is that I don't need those healthcare options because I would never make use of them. I never will. I don't want them. But it would seem I will be fined or tossed in jail unless I have them in a few years.

I would quite literally rather die then live on my knees. That should be my choice to make, but for some reason it isn't.

these guys?



or these guys?

elebrin: Believe it or not, my opinions have nothing to do with healthcare. I'd feel that way if every medical procedure conceivable to man, invented or uninvented, were available to me right now. I am not going to go through life deaf, blind, missing limbs, unable to speak, unable to think clearly, attached to machines and dependent on them to stay alive, or scarred to the point that I don't even look human any more. I don't want to live that way and it doesn't have a damned thing to do with money.

What I am saying is that I don't need those healthcare options because I would never make use of them. I never will. I don't want them. But it would seem I will be fined or tossed in jail unless I have them in a few years.

I would quite literally rather die then live on my knees. That should be my choice to make, but for some reason it isn't.

Well I think it's safe to say your position is firmly fixed on EXTREME CASES OF HEALTHCARE and not what most of us consider normal care and maintenance

Believe it or not, we don't do blood letting any longer :)

I prefer to think of my healthcare as a safety net that'll fix me up so I can continue to live my life, provide for my family and grow old

sloth: I dunno, clothing, shelter, and food are much more basic needs than advanced health-care, and those are handled well by the market.

If you need treatment at an emergency room because you've been in a serious accident, that's about as basic as you can get. If you don't get it, you die.

blandly pompous: If you need treatment at an emergency room because you've been in a serious accident, that's about as basic as you can get. If you don't get it, you die.

I dunno, maybe elebrin has a point. Maybe he should be able to carry a card (much like my insurance card that guarantees me a safe/fast trip to a hospital) that says "let me die in the street, i don't want your help"

Even if modern medicine could easily help him

There's a lot of derp in this thread already, but not as much as there is in the Republican leadership.
Look at your "leading candidates": Gingrich, Paul, Romney and Santorum.
That's an ex-Baptist-now-Catholic; a Baptist but marginal Republican; a Mormon; and another Catholic.
At the risk of sounding like Lush Rimjob, they're not even playing to their own base -- and that's just looking ONE personal factor.
In the race between "four more years" and "went out for Doritos rather than voted," we're neck-and-neck.

I just really doubt the price will be going down. This is legislation bought and paid for by the lobbyists of the insurance companies. The right and left are both guilty of passing Obamacare, but most people want it, so I get no choice. Now that everyone has to have it, the price will go up.

if it isn't true that insurance will cost me that much, find me a provider that will cost me less in Michigan. You can't do it because such doesn't exist. When I first started working, I researched what it would cost me to be insured because I thought I might be able to afford it.

I would imagine that if you don't pay the fine, they will escalate the potential penalties to things like going to prison.

farkmeblind: I find that difficult to believe. I smoke and am over 40 and my individual premium was quoted at less than that in California, no less, by Blue Cross/Blue Shield.

The difference is that you can get insurance through your employer. How ya doin? I am self employed.

baron muchhumpin: why get rid of it? Why not use it as a starting point?

stop living your black & white life, jump into the warm squishy gray area.. it's fun in here!



Obamacare provides too much Executive Overreach dude. Can't have that. a conservative administration can remove the free abortions in a pen stroke by the HHS secretary.

Why are you so OK with the gov't having so much power?

elebrin: Believe it or not, my opinions have nothing to do with healthcare. I'd feel that way if every medical procedure conceivable to man, invented or uninvented, were available to me right now. I am not going to go through life deaf, blind, missing limbs, unable to speak, unable to think clearly, attached to machines and dependent on them to stay alive, or scarred to the point that I don't even look human any more. I don't want to live that way and it doesn't have a damned thing to do with money.

What I am saying is that I don't need those healthcare options because I would never make use of them. I never will. I don't want them. But it would seem I will be fined or tossed in jail unless I have them in a few years.

I would quite literally rather die then live on my knees. That should be my choice to make, but for some reason it isn't.

Well, I don't have kids. I still have to pay property taxes, which in my state partially fund schools, to educate the kids I don't have. I have to pay gas taxes to pay for roads that not only I drive on. I have to pay all sorts of taxes for things I don't need and sometimes don't want. If I didn't, I'd have a lot more of "my" money.

Here's where we diverge. I don't necessarily want more of "my" money if that money can be combined with a lot of other people's money to do things for "us" as a group. If I could be certain that "my" money were going to things that made "my" life easier to live, like public transit, a public electrical grid, public sanitation/water treatment, public education, and public schools and even public parks, I would have to spend less of "my" money on getting those things on the private market, where the prices would more than likely be quite a bit higher.

For instance, water from my tap costs pennies per 100 gallons. A liter of Dasani is $1.50. In many countries, the liter of Dasani is the only clean water available because there are no municipal water systems. It's easy to pooh-pooh municipal utilities until you don't have them.

This is where the intersection of food, housing, and clothing show up in public health. Consider an AIDS patient who has access to meds. Great, right? But those meds require ingestion with water. Some require ingestion with, after, or before food.

No matter how great your health care is, if the patient isn't adequately hydrated, fed, and kept warm and dry, your medicines will be a waste of time and money.

elebrin: The difference is that you can get insurance through your employer. How ya doin? I am self employed.

Is there a UPS near you? I knew many self employed people that worked part-time at UPS (3am-8am) and as part of the union were paying $26 per month for full family HC

granted this was in the early 90s so the fees probably have gone up - but there are options

baron muchhumpin: Well I think it's safe to say your position is firmly fixed on EXTREME CASES OF HEALTHCARE and not what most of us consider normal care and maintenance

Believe it or not, we don't do blood letting any longer :)

I prefer to think of my healthcare as a safety net that'll fix me up so I can continue to live my life, provide for my family and grow old

If you have hemochromatosis, we do indeed still do bloodletting ;^P

elebrin: The difference is that you can get insurance through your employer. How ya doin? I am self employed.

And there are exceptions written into the ACA for the self-employed and for small businesses.

The other option you have is getting a job that offers health benefits.

phil_herup: Obamacare provides too much Executive Overreach dude. Can't have that. a conservative administration can remove the free abortions in a pen stroke by the HHS secretary.

Why are you so OK with the gov't having so much power?

Because I don't think the HC providers are helping. I think the PEC clause in Obama's HC Reform alone is enough to keep it.

I've never said it's a perfect solution, just a starting point

blandly pompous: If you need treatment at an emergency room because you've been in a serious accident, that's about as basic as you can get. If you don't get it, you die.

Yep, and asking you if you've paid your health insurance premium before we'll allow you into the ambu bay is thankfully lower than we have yet to sink. Yet.

elebrin: The difference is that you can get insurance through your employer. How ya doin? I am self employed.

And actually, assumptions make an ass out of you, dear. I pay for a group plan because it is required by my institution of higher education. Before that, I paid individual rates.

Dog the Bounty Hunter supports Universal HC -so should you

baron muchhumpin: Dog the Bounty Hunter supports Universal HC -so should you

He should, IIRC he is now raising his granddaughter. He's going to spend more time sick from germs that little sprat brings home from school...

farkmeblind: He should, IIRC he is now raising his granddaughter. He's going to spend more time sick from germs that little sprat brings home from school...

kids are the worst viral vectors around

Everytime someone is sick at work they always say the same thing "ugg, kids brought something home"

baron muchhumpin: kids are the worst viral vectors around

Everytime someone is sick at work they always say the same thing "ugg, kids brought something home"

They so are. Sticky, constantly touching their faces or putting things in their mouths (or in abby's stepson's case, other orifices), they're nasty. Kind of like the dog who likes to lick his ass and balls and then lick your face. Gah.

baron muchhumpin: Because I don't think the HC providers are helping. I think the PEC clause in Obama's HC Reform alone is enough to keep it.

I've never said it's a perfect solution, just a starting point


Why don't you think the HC providers are helping? It is not their job to help fix the problem. The problem is with the insurance companies.

You think the PEC clause alone is worth the piles of regulations? That could be handled on its own with out this bull.

phil_herup:

You think the PEC clause alone is worth the piles of regulations? That could be handled on its own with out this bull.

Sure phil, there is a long list of things that "could have" or "should have" been done but WEREN'T - now something was done about it

baron muchhumpin: Sure phil, there is a long list of things that "could have" or "should have" been done but WEREN'T - now something was done about it

Hmmm, reminds me of a quote about the difference between leadership and management.

Leadership is doing the right thing, management is doing things right.

farkmeblind: And actually, assumptions make an ass out of you, dear. I pay for a group plan because it is required by my institution of higher education. Before that, I paid individual rates.

It was for me too actually, I lied and used someone else's card for that. I am also not terribly interested in changing who I work for as I am not willing to move (there is about one job in my industry in this town, and its taken). Besides, jobs don't just grow on the job tree... you can't just walk down to UPS and get a job (unless you have a CDL then things might be different). Additionally as I have been doing this for a while, I am probably unemployable to most people.

You were the one telling me that insurance is cheap "because group coverage" or whatever. I don't fall into that category.

farkmeblind: And actually, assumptions make an ass out of you, dear. I pay for a group plan because it is required by my institution of higher education. Before that, I paid individual rates.

And I am nobody's dear. I find that condescending and insulting.

elebrin: And I am nobody's dear. I find that condescending and insulting.

I'm sorry you're offended, and also a bit sorry that you are no one's dear. That's kinda sad.

Then again, if your loved ones can't spell, it makes hunting season a tad dicey.

elebrin: It was for me too actually, I lied and used someone else's card for that. I am also not terribly interested in changing who I work for as I am not willing to move (there is about one job in my industry in this town, and its taken). Besides, jobs don't just grow on the job tree... you can't just walk down to UPS and get a job (unless you have a CDL then things might be different). Additionally as I have been doing this for a while, I am probably unemployable to most people.

You were the one telling me that insurance is cheap "because group coverage" or whatever. I don't fall into that category.

This is the point of the individual mandate, you would then be in group coverage because everyone is in the pool, by default. The larger the pool, the lowers the risk, and the lower the price for assuming that risk by the insurance company, ergo the lower the premium you pay.

BTW, if you are disqualified from lower-priced covereage you have a genetic or pre-existing problem.

If you are a libertarian, then you should have chosen better parents.

Basically, what I'm now hearing you say is "I want the government to intervene when I want it and to stay out of my business when I want it. I know I'm an edge case and I don't care. Do it my way."

It's a position, but it's not a terribly reasonable one. As a constituency of one, what about your story is remarkable enough that you should have a special case made for you?

elebrin: Besides, jobs don't just grow on the job tree...

If the constant libertarian refrain here of "if you don't like your job you're free to move to where the jobs are or STFU" bothers you, perhaps you should find another political affiliation ;^P

blandly pompous: If you need treatment at an emergency room because you've been in a serious accident, that's about as basic as you can get. If you don't get it, you die.

The emergency rooms already have a duty to treat - absolutely nothing proposed in this discussion, or the wider discussion of RomneyCare, ObamaCare, or competing European systems is gonna change that. Indeed, it's so irrelevant to any possible discussion on the topic, I have a hard time imagining why you would bring it up.

baron muchhumpin: I dunno, maybe elebrin has a point. Maybe he should be able to carry a card (much like my insurance card that guarantees me a safe/fast trip to a hospital) that says "let me die in the street, i don't want your help"

You can, in fact, carry a DNR notice.

elebrin: condescending and insulting.

It's a lifestyle choice. On the bright side, those who choose it tend not to be too bright, and the combination of condescending, insulting, and hilariously wrong can be great entertainment.

farkmeblind: If the constant libertarian refrain here of "if you don't like your job you're free to move to where the jobs are or STFU" bothers you, perhaps you should find another political affiliation ;^P

It doesn't bother me, because I like my job.


farkmeblind:
Basically, what I'm now hearing you say is "I want the government to intervene when I want it and to stay out of my business when I want it. I know I'm an edge case and I don't care. Do it my way."

That position isn't different weather there is one person behind it or a majority. This is why I argue for no government intervention, or better yet minimal government intervention. I am being actively hurt by a current policy and I see no good way out. Don't you think I would be a little upset?


farkmeblind: I'm sorry you're offended, and also a bit sorry that you are no one's dear. That's kinda sad.

Well hey thanks for continuing to be a condescending ass, even when trying to apologize. That takes a special level of talent right there.

elebrin: It doesn't bother me, because I like my job.

That position isn't different weather there is one person behind it or a majority. This is why I argue for no government intervention, or better yet minimal government intervention. I am being actively hurt by a current policy and I see no good way out. Don't you think I would be a little upset?


Well hey thanks for continuing to be a condescending ass, even when trying to apologize. That takes a special level of talent right there.

I would remind you that you are speaking to someone who doesn't even have full civil rights in this society and yet is participating in it anyway. Sure, you can be upset, but it's not like people are telling you you can't marry or vote. There are millions of people in the U.S. who are being actively hurt by a number of policies, and I see very little compassion on your part for those people when they are discussed.

I can see you are misreading what I've said, probably intentionally, as you now feel the need to be angry about a simple discussion.

You will have a number of options to you regarding complying or otherwise with the new laws (after June 20th). Whether you like it or not, really doesn't enter into it.

Have a lovely evening.

options available to you

Believe it or not, I am not angry. I don't get angry often.

If you really feel like you are less then a full citizen of this country, then it seems to me you also have some big Government you could stand to get off your back too. We should be allies.

sloth: You can, in fact, carry a DNR notice.

I'm not even talking about it going that far - if people don't want to participate in the healthcare system then they should get COMPLETELY out

That means you can't visit our ERs or Drs only when it's convenient - I pay over $3k per year for my HC that I hardly ever use, yet I pay it

baron muchhumpin: I'm not even talking about it going that far - if people don't want to participate in the healthcare system then they should get COMPLETELY out

That means you can't visit our ERs or Drs only when it's convenient - I pay over $3k per year for my HC that I hardly ever use, yet I pay it

Gotcha. It'll never happen - I mean, I suppose you could carry a notice stating you don't wish to be treated, ever, but I don't see the practice catching on.

elebrin: Believe it or not, I am not angry. I don't get angry often.

If you really feel like you are less then a full citizen of this country, then it seems to me you also have some big Government you could stand to get off your back too. We should be allies.

Why? The candidate closest to your party (AFAIK minarchists don't have a candidate, you're stuck with Ron Paul) would like to remove even more rights from me. That would be a stupid allegiance for me to make.

Not every enemy of my enemy is my friend, and Big
Government isn't my enemy.


baron muchhumpin: I'm not even talking about it going that far - if people don't want to participate in the healthcare system then they should get COMPLETELY out

That means you can't visit our ERs or Drs only when it's convenient - I pay over $3k per year for my HC that I hardly ever use, yet I pay it

That would be the hard core version. Don't want HC? Fine, you are excluded by statute from every provider, no matter how small. Your next visit to Target will not include a stop by the pharmacy.

I would love to see that as a television show.

farkmeblind: Your next visit to Target will not include a stop by the pharmacy.

Unless, of course, you pay out of pocket.

elebrin: Unless, of course, you pay out of pocket.

Nope, no health care imo (baron's mileage may vary) is that all products of the health care system are not available to you. Aspirin? Product appears courtesy of the global pharma distribution system, and the Royal Society (nasty icky monarchists). Sorry, not for you. Go boil some willow bark, you plucky individualist!

farkmeblind: That would be the hard core version. Don't want HC?
I would love to see that as a television show.

I'm pretty hardcore :)

If the Kardashians can have multiple TV shows I don't see why we can't pitch this on to Chuck Lorre

FMB and Baron are going to be Reality TV millionaires :)

farkmeblind: Nope, no health care imo (baron's mileage may vary) is that all products of the health care system are not available to you. Aspirin? Product appears courtesy of the global pharma distribution system, and the Royal Society (nasty icky monarchists). Sorry, not for you. Go boil some willow bark, you plucky individualist!

Right, because if it can't be provided by Government, it can't be provided at all.

baron muchhumpin: I'm pretty hardcore :)

If the Kardashians can have multiple TV shows I don't see why we can't pitch this on to Chuck Lorre

FMB and Baron are going to be Reality TV millionaires :)

I think we should get together on a script, this could be hilarious. And sad. Hilariously sad.

elebrin: Right, because if it can't be provided by Government, it can't be provided at all.

Speaking of hilariously sad ;^P

farkmeblind: I think we should get together on a script, this could be hilarious. And sad. Hilariously sad.

Any resemblance to people living or dead is purely coincidental ... Especially you, elebrin

;-)