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  • ISPs begin the buttrapefest in June.



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    gradivus 3607 2012-03-15 17:14:20.0 login to vote score 1
    Im still trying to figure out how forcing paying customers to NOT pay you anymore is going to result in them making more money.
    totalsecurity 1281 2012-03-15 17:15:41.0 login to vote score 1
    Member-Owned Cooperative FTW!
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 17:15:52.0 login to vote score 3
    " no ISP is allowed to disable VOIP, email, security, or TV services"

    Prediction: arbitrary TCP/IP over VOIP in 3....2....1...
    quick1 501 2012-03-15 17:17:33.0 login to vote score 0
    gradivus: Im still trying to figure out how forcing paying customers to NOT pay you anymore is going to result in them making more money.

    Mitigation measures can include throttling of upload or download speeds, a temporary reduction in service quality to one step above dial-up, redirection to a landing page so that the customer can be further ‘educated’, or even account suspension. No ISP has yet agreed to the latter

    Looks like none of them have agreed to suspend people from the internet, because the ISPs would rather get those subscription fees.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 17:17:57.0 login to vote score 2


    Popcorn at the ready.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 17:18:57.0 login to vote score 0
    Just bittorrent? Cuz I get some stuff from other sites which link to other sites such as uploaded.to and depositfile.com (even though uploaded.to wont work in the US anymore)
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 17:18:58.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: " no ISP is allowed to disable VOIP, email, security, or TV services"

    Prediction: arbitrary TCP/IP over VOIP in 3....2....1...


    Or rather, welcome to last year....

    \Though I bet you could build a pretty high-compression high-volume PPP link over a digital audio link like VOIP provides...
    dimensiation 1319 2012-03-15 17:25:09.0 login to vote score 0
    Can you sue the ISP for throttling you since you're paying for 20 down/5 up or whatever? Breach of contract?
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 17:27:30.0 login to vote score 1
    dimensiation: Can you sue the ISP for throttling you since you're paying for 20 down/5 up or whatever? Breach of contract?

    Only if they're dumb. Read the terms and conditions: that speed is an "up to" speed, not a guarantee of service.
    eddyatwork 998 2012-03-15 17:30:31.0 login to vote score 0
    dimensiation: Can you sue the ISP for throttling you since you're paying for 20 down/5 up or whatever? Breach of contract?

    They probably have something about not doing illegal activities or limiting bandwidth to those who are taking more than their fair share which is how they'll go after the uploaders.
    gradivus 3607 2012-03-15 17:33:27.0 login to vote score 1
    quick1: Mitigation measures can include throttling of upload or download speeds, a temporary reduction in service quality to one step above dial-up, redirection to a landing page so that the customer can be further ‘educated’, or even account suspension. No ISP has yet agreed to the latter

    Looks like none of them have agreed to suspend people from the internet, because the ISPs would rather get those subscription fees.


    Yeah, start throttling users to 5Kb/s and watch the subscriptions drop off.
    eddyatwork 998 2012-03-15 17:40:32.0 login to vote score 0
    totalsecurity: Member-Owned Cooperative FTW!

    Yes, I'll just get a few buddies and run a couple hundred miles of cable around the area. Yep, I'm on it.
    artificeren 757 2012-03-15 18:17:30.0 login to vote score 0
    eddyatwork: Yes, I'll just get a few buddies and run a couple hundred miles of cable around the area. Yep, I'm on it.

    if this becomes a real problem, i guarantee you that small townships all over the country will start running their own fiber.

    The cities are more problematic, but I can definitely imagine a wifi or wimax or some other wireless system being used. Perhaps even appropriating tv spectrum whitespace.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 18:21:17.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Or rather, welcome to last year....

    Though I bet you could build a pretty high-compression high-volume PPP link over a digital audio link like VOIP provides...


    Running like a 114kb connection, it might take a while to get movies.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 18:23:45.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Running like a 114kb connection, it might take a while to get movies.

    Sure, but there's ways to multi-link those sorts of tunnels, ain't there? ;-þ
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 18:26:59.0 login to vote score 1
    muninsfire: Sure, but there's ways to multi-link those sorts of tunnels, ain't there? ;-þ

    Multiple voip calls between servers are generally "trunked", perhaps an open source voip application that happens to have plenty of "configuration options" that might allow that sort of thing would be worthwhile.

    I'm not downloading anything, I'm hosting dozens of phone calls.
    trigonman3 63 2012-03-15 18:32:51.0 login to vote score 2
    surfnazi: Running like a 114kb connection, it might take a while to get movies.

    That "snail-mailing hard drives to Canada" thing from a while back may be getting closer to reality.
    eddyatwork 998 2012-03-15 18:40:10.0 login to vote score 0
    trigonman3: That "snail-mailing hard drives to Canada" thing from a while back may be getting closer to reality.

    I remember a quote from waaay back in the early 90s saying "never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with floppies" as a way of transferring large amounts of data.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 18:46:05.0 login to vote score 2
    The ISPs know it won't work. They get plausible deniability and an excuse to throttle bandwidth - the latter being their main interest I suspect.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 18:47:13.0 login to vote score 1
    eddyatwork: I remember a quote from waaay back in the early 90s saying "never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with floppies" as a way of transferring large amounts of data.


    eddyatwork: I remember a quote from waaay back in the early 90s saying "never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon filled with floppies" as a way of transferring large amounts of data.

    I've had to drive hard drives full of shit down from where our tape backups are before. 2 hours beats 2 days.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:47:33.0 login to vote score 0
    artificeren: if this becomes a real problem, i guarantee you that small townships all over the country will start running their own fiber.

    The cities are more problematic, but I can definitely imagine a wifi or wimax or some other wireless system being used. Perhaps even appropriating tv spectrum whitespace.


    Ashland, Oregon already has their own fiber network. Have for about 10 years now.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:48:17.0 login to vote score 0
    Also, the uploaders aren't the problem. Upload speeds tend to be less than download speeds. It's when you get a bunch of people pulling 10mb/sec or more... that will strain a network.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:49:05.0 login to vote score 0
    And DSL is a culprit of "speeds up to" deals. DSL speeds have to do with how far you are from their trunk line. Not so much with Cable.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:49:32.0 login to vote score 0
    gradivus: Yeah, start throttling users to 5Kb/s and watch the subscriptions drop off.

    And move to AOL lol.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 18:51:50.0 login to vote score 1
    eddyatwork: Yes, I'll just get a few buddies and run a couple hundred miles of cable around the area. Yep, I'm on it.

    I get the feeling we're approaching critical mass with wireless hotspots. Give it a few years and the Internet backbones may lose their power, much the same way individual cars supplanted railways. Just a thought.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:52:13.0 login to vote score 0
    Also, how do ISP's know wtf is up? Do they know if you are downloading from a BitTorrent vs. some other place? Using a lot of bandwidth shouldn't be grounds for reporting anything. If they CAN tell exactly where you are downloading from, can they tell if it's illegal material? Can they tell if it's some porn movie that you are torrenting vs X-Plane which is distributed on BitTorrent LEGALLY?
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 18:55:15.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: Also, how do ISP's know wtf is up? Do they know if you are downloading from a BitTorrent vs. some other place? Using a lot of bandwidth shouldn't be grounds for reporting anything. If they CAN tell exactly where you are downloading from, can they tell if it's illegal material? Can they tell if it's some porn movie that you are torrenting vs X-Plane which is distributed on BitTorrent LEGALLY?

    No, but they can restrict your usage (and save money) while they "investigate".
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 18:55:49.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Also, how do ISP's know wtf is up? Do they know if you are downloading from a BitTorrent vs. some other place? Using a lot of bandwidth shouldn't be grounds for reporting anything. If they CAN tell exactly where you are downloading from, can they tell if it's illegal material? Can they tell if it's some porn movie that you are torrenting vs X-Plane which is distributed on BitTorrent LEGALLY?

    They know who you're connecting to, how many connections you're making, what ports you're transmitting over, so yeah they basically know what you're doing. Not to mention they are absolutely doing packet inspection, though ISPs either don't want to give up their hand, or they're really not allowed to use that stuff.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 18:56:43.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: Also, how do ISP's know wtf is up? Do they know if you are downloading from a BitTorrent vs. some other place? Using a lot of bandwidth shouldn't be grounds for reporting anything. If they CAN tell exactly where you are downloading from, can they tell if it's illegal material? Can they tell if it's some porn movie that you are torrenting vs X-Plane which is distributed on BitTorrent LEGALLY?

    It's called deep packet inspection, and it's based on technology that companies like Cisco have exported to regimes like that of Gadaffi and the one in Iran.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 18:58:46.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: They know who you're connecting to, how many connections you're making, what ports you're transmitting over, so yeah they basically know what you're doing. Not to mention they are absolutely doing packet inspection, though ISPs either don't want to give up their hand, or they're really not allowed to use that stuff.

    Packet inspection? Whatever. That don't matter. You can't read shit off a bittorrent via packets can you? It's just info from 30 diff sources. How can they tell what it is and what it will compile into on your end when completed?
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:00:31.0 login to vote score 8
    twitch osx: Packet inspection? Whatever. That don't matter. You can't read shit off a bittorrent via packets can you? It's just info from 30 diff sources. How can they tell what it is and what it will compile into on your end when completed?

    They're a -little- more competent at computers than you are, twitchy.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:02:41.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Packet inspection? Whatever. That don't matter. You can't read shit off a bittorrent via packets can you? It's just info from 30 diff sources. How can they tell what it is and what it will compile into on your end when completed?

    That's a good question, I don't know exactly what's in a torrent packet, but I can guarantee it easily identifies itself as such.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:04:15.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: That's a good question, I don't know exactly what's in a torrent packet, but I can guarantee it easily identifies itself as such.

    I don't doubt that it does. However, how are they to know exactly what that packet will make up in the end? I highly doubt that all torrent packets are running around identifying themselves as "Cool Movie" or "New Game"
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:04:17.0 login to vote score 2
    Even the encrypted torrent traffic is detectable.

    Analysis of the BitTorrent protocol encryption (a.k.a. MSE) has shown that statistical measurements of packet sizes and packet directions of the first 100 packets in a TCP session can be used to identify the obfuscated protocol with over 96% accuracy
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:05:02.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: That's a good question, I don't know exactly what's in a torrent packet, but I can guarantee it easily identifies itself as such.

    Yeah, it's pretty easy to tell if you bother looking.
    drew curtis 1098 2012-03-15 19:05:29.0 login to vote score 7
    twitch osx: I don't doubt that it does. However, how are they to know exactly what that packet will make up in the end? I highly doubt that all torrent packets are running around identifying themselves as "Cool Movie" or "New Game"

    How the fuck do I plug in my playstation?
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:05:34.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: They're a -little- more competent at computers than you are, twitchy.

    No shit. But I'm not a complete retard either, no matter what people here want to think or say.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:05:46.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: I don't doubt that it does. However, how are they to know exactly what that packet will make up in the end? I highly doubt that all torrent packets are running around identifying themselves as "Cool Movie" or "New Game"

    ISPs aren't the ones that give a shit about what movie you're downloading, that's the MPAA or whoever else. They just want to limit use of their systems until only grandmas cookie recipe is the only thing taxing their network.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:06:08.0 login to vote score 0
    drew curtis: How the fuck do I plug in my playstation?

    How do you suck your own dick?
    zero alts 10567 2012-03-15 19:07:09.0 login to vote score 2
    twitch osx: Packet inspection? Whatever. That don't matter. You can't read shit off a bittorrent via packets can you? It's just info from 30 diff sources. How can they tell what it is and what it will compile into on your end when completed?

    The fucking internet, how does it work.

    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:07:10.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: ISPs aren't the ones that give a shit about what movie you're downloading, that's the MPAA or whoever else. They just want to limit use of their systems until only grandmas cookie recipe is the only thing taxing their network.

    I completely understand that. ISP's don't give a flying fuck, they they are the ones whose networks are being used to transmit things so they have the technology to report to the RIAA/MPAA about what the fuck is up.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:07:10.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: No shit. But I'm not a complete retard either, no matter what people here want to think or say.

    Really?

    Coulda fooled me.

    Regardless, it's pretty easy, when they are capable of sniffing every packet to and from your computer, to tell what you're doing. Given that most people only have one ISP and one link to the internet, it's fairly probable that every packet you send and receive goes through their routers, upon which sits the packet inspection equipment.

    tl;dr: Twitch is teh dumbz0rz and his ISP knows what porn he watches.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:07:30.0 login to vote score 0
    zero alts: The fucking internet, how does it work.

    Exactly
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:08:22.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Really?

    Coulda fooled me.

    Regardless, it's pretty easy, when they are capable of sniffing every packet to and from your computer, to tell what you're doing. Given that most people only have one ISP and one link to the internet, it's fairly probable that every packet you send and receive goes through their routers, upon which sits the packet inspection equipment.

    tl;dr: Twitch is teh dumbz0rz and his ISP knows what porn he watches.


    LOL. If ISP's want to sit around sniffing all my packets, then they have way too much time on their hands.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:08:22.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: I completely understand that. ISP's don't give a flying fuck, they they are the ones whose networks are being used to transmit things so they have the technology to report to the RIAA/MPAA about what the fuck is up.

    It's (nearly) always the other way around though. RIAA sees you downloading Britney Spears, and then contacts your isp for the proof.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:08:43.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: Exactly

    Well, when a client and a server love each other -very- much, the client will send a SYN packet to the server to see if he's interested in her. The server indicates his desire to SYN with her by sending her an ACKnowledgement of that SYN, and then the client ACKs back to him to make sure he knows she's really truly interested....
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:09:01.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: LOL. If ISP's want to sit around sniffing all my packets, then they have way too much time on their hands.

    They have plenty of spare processing capacity and storage space.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:09:15.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: LOL. If ISP's want to sit around sniffing all my packets, then they have way too much time on their hands.

    It's automated, laddie.

    \However, they know exactly what you've got in -your- hands...
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:10:58.0 login to vote score 1
    By the way, I worked for an ISP. Back in 2002 or so, we started offering a WAN service close to our building.. within a couple miles or so. People who wanted that WAN could get decent (at the time) high speed internet which we advertised. The thing was, there was this one guy that was sending large files (600mb or so) at a time around to other places (out of our area). I don't know if our techs looked at WHAT he was sending, but they freaked out at the size of the files and they fucking throttled his service. I thought it was bullshit. Still think it's bullshit. If you advertise a speed, it needs to be that speed or very close to it no matter what you do. Fuck you if you throttle me.
    zero alts 10567 2012-03-15 19:11:05.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: No shit. But I'm not a complete retard either, no matter what people here want to think or say.

    I've.never thought you were a complete retard.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:11:44.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: It's (nearly) always the other way around though. RIAA sees you downloading Britney Spears, and then contacts your isp for the proof.

    How the fuck would the RIAA know if I was pulling Britney Spears unless they were serving?
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:12:16.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: How the fuck would the RIAA know if I was pulling Britney Spears unless they were serving?

    Exactly.
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 19:12:37.0 login to vote score 3
    retroshare
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:12:43.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Exactly.

    So?
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:13:14.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: So?

    They host their stuff, or more likely a vendor does, and watch you download it from them.
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:13:32.0 login to vote score 5
    twitch osx: No shit. But I'm not a complete retard either, no matter what people here want to think or say.

    The scary thing here is that even as derptarded as you may seem from time to time - you're easily in the top few % of Americans (probably any country). The kinds of people who are regularly posting on forums aren't even close to as technoretarded as most of our population.

    For anyone who is even half competent with something like Wireshark, identifying THAT you're using BitTorrent isn't difficult at all. Seeing what you're downloading is another story though. But...

    Your ISP has access to 100% of your up and down packets, they shouldn't even have a hard time putting the packets back together if they're encrypted, as they'll have the whole handshake process. Of course, in order to do so they would have to actually capture your data as it went through their network (as opposed to just metadata and metrics) which would probably lead to a shitstorm as soon as people found out that was going on.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:14:24.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: They host their stuff, or more likely a vendor does, and watch you download it from them.

    But not torrents right?
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:15:12.0 login to vote score 0
    Unfortunately, this thread is SFW so I can't talk about where I get some of my stuff... which isn't all that horrible if you look at the money involved, but I'm not gonna say I do or don't do things here.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:16:37.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: The scary thing here is that even as derptarded as you may seem from time to time - you're easily in the top few % of Americans (probably any country). The kinds of people who are regularly posting on forums aren't even close to as technoretarded as most of our population.

    For anyone who is even half competent with something like Wireshark, identifying THAT you're using BitTorrent isn't difficult at all. Seeing what you're downloading is another story though. But...

    Your ISP has access to 100% of your up and down packets, they shouldn't even have a hard time putting the packets back together if they're encrypted, as they'll have the whole handshake process. Of course, in order to do so they would have to actually capture your data as it went through their network (as opposed to just metadata and metrics) which would probably lead to a shitstorm as soon as people found out that was going on.


    Ok.. but my point is... SO MANY PEOPLE DO THIS.. you would have to hire THOUSANDS of people to check that shit out. ISP's aren't about to do that. No fucking way.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:16:39.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: But not torrents right?

    Yes torrents. You've certainly heard of honeypots befoer.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:17:59.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Ok.. but my point is... SO MANY PEOPLE DO THIS.. you would have to hire THOUSANDS of people to check that shit out. ISP's aren't about to do that. No fucking way.

    You don't need any people at all when you have this
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:18:21.0 login to vote score 0
    Never tried but I've always wondered if you could sniff other peoples packets on your cable segment.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 19:20:06.0 login to vote score 2
    twitch osx: No shit. But I'm not a complete retard either, no matter what people here want to think or say.

    We know you aren't. But sometimes you do post these wtf? comments. For example, being baffled by 600MB downloads in the era of CDs.
    drew curtis 1098 2012-03-15 19:20:25.0 login to vote score 1
    twitch osx: How do you suck your own dick?

    i use your mom. or Jeff.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:20:48.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: You don't need any people at all when you have this

    Did you hear Dell is wanting to buy Sonicwall?

    We use sonicwall equipment and have a sizeable Dell investment, I just have this gut feeling that it will be terrible.

    I don't even really like the shit, but it is very easy to fiddle with.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:21:24.0 login to vote score 0
    kang: Never tried but I've always wondered if you could sniff other peoples packets on your cable segment.

    Not typically; your cable modem sets up a PPP tunnel, IIRC, which effectively masks the others' content
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:23:20.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Did you hear Dell is wanting to buy Sonicwall?

    We use sonicwall equipment and have a sizeable Dell investment, I just have this gut feeling that it will be terrible.

    I don't even really like the shit, but it is very easy to fiddle with.


    I'd heard a rumor to that effect...which, given who Dell has lots of contracts with....
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:23:59.0 login to vote score 4
    twitch osx: Ok.. but my point is... SO MANY PEOPLE DO THIS.. you would have to hire THOUSANDS of people to check that shit out. ISP's aren't about to do that. No fucking way.

    There exists, in our time, these things called "computers" they're pretty good at doing lots of analytic work VERY quickly. Think more along the lines of :

    Write a rule set: IF User = USING BIT TORRENT and SUCKING UP TOO MUCH BANDWIDTH FOR OUR BOTTOM LINE, then FLAG their account.

    When USER = FLAGGED, execute 24 hour capture of network traffic. Compile all BIT TORRENT files. Next day, or week, pay some guy $8/hr to look through file names of thousands of users a day and add a secondary flag of copyright infringement.

    And less along the lines of : Dude putting my packets together with scotch tape.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:24:02.0 login to vote score 3
    kang: Never tried but I've always wondered if you could sniff other peoples packets on your cable segment.

    I sniff my fingers a lot.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:25:14.0 login to vote score 0
    strayling: We know you aren't. But sometimes you do post these wtf? comments. For example, being baffled by 600MB downloads in the era of CDs.

    Not sure where you are going there. 10 years ago... 600mb downloads or uploads were NOT common for the ISP I worked for which offered 56k only, and just rolled out a WAN. We didn't offer DSL or Cable over our systems.
    synthelim 6996 2012-03-15 19:25:39.0 login to vote score 3
    Let them try to kill piracy. One way or another, people always find a way to get what they want.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:26:20.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Not sure where you are going there. 10 years ago... 600mb downloads or uploads were NOT common for the ISP I worked for which offered 56k only, and just rolled out a WAN. We didn't offer DSL or Cable over our systems.

    Speaking as someone who regularly figured out how to download CDs across a 28.8 connection, you're pretty naive.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:26:54.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Not sure where you are going there. 10 years ago... 600mb downloads or uploads were NOT common for the ISP I worked for which offered 56k only, and just rolled out a WAN. We didn't offer DSL or Cable over our systems.

    Yeah that's pretty shitty and most likely sue-worthy had he known. They should have called and asked him. Maybe he didn't even know it was happening. Sounds like a backup though.
    drew curtis 1098 2012-03-15 19:28:01.0 login to vote score 0
    ASS SPRINKLERS
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:28:20.0 login to vote score 2
    muninsfire: Speaking as someone who regularly figured out how to download CDs across a 28.8 connection, you're pretty naive.

    Hah I remember downloading NIN's Closer (just the one song) from a BBS, took at least three days worth of effort, getting kicked off the goddamn phone repeatedly.

    zmodem ftw.
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:29:58.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Not typically; your cable modem sets up a PPP tunnel, IIRC, which effectively masks the others' content

    Yeah, and I'm sure there are some differences between coax and cat5 that I'm not considering. But, if coax is similar to cat5, being on the segment should give you ISP level access to the packets flying over the coax however they do so.

    Granted, you wouldn't be able to do anything with them without some NSA level decryption. But, you probably could get some high level metrics though like suspicious 600 mb files and such...
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 19:30:47.0 login to vote score 0
    Freemet is getting more interesting. If you have a spare wireless router plug it in and set it up with no access controls, but don't connect it to your ISP ....
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:31:49.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Hah I remember downloading NIN's Closer (just the one song) from a BBS, took at least three days worth of effort, getting kicked off the goddamn phone repeatedly.

    zmodem ftw.


    Back in the day I used a variant of zmodem called Icezmodem. The Add-on will allow you to transfer with zmodem as normal, but if you're transferring a file with someone else that has Icezmodem,you can text chat with the user on the other end during the file transfer.
    drew curtis 1098 2012-03-15 19:33:07.0 login to vote score 0
    clifton: Back in the day I used a variant of zmodem called Icezmodem. The Add-on will allow you to transfer with zmodem as normal, but if you're transferring a file with someone else that has Icezmodem,you can text chat with the user on the other end during the file transfer.

    IcyHot, bro. Chat.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 19:33:08.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Hah I remember downloading NIN's Closer (just the one song) from a BBS, took at least three days worth of effort, getting kicked off the goddamn phone repeatedly.

    zmodem ftw.


    I figured out pretty quickly that underclocking the modem would let me keep it going for--in some cases--longer than a month.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:34:21.0 login to vote score 0
    drew curtis: IcyHot, bro. Chat.

    Just put some icy hot on your cock and balls,
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:35:19.0 login to vote score 1
    clifton: Back in the day I used a variant of zmodem called Icezmodem. The Add-on will allow you to transfer with zmodem as normal, but if you're transferring a file with someone else that has Icezmodem,you can text chat with the user on the other end during the file transfer.

    Nice.

    Goddamnit I can't remember the program I usually used to dial in.

    I remember there was Procomm, which had neat like macro settings and lots of fun ANSI support as well as war dialing capacity but didn't have zmodem. I wish I could recall the main program I used. Those were the days... When you could wardial all day and the worst that happened was your mom got mad at you being on the phone.
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 19:36:42.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: The scary thing here is that even as derptarded as you may seem from time to time - you're easily in the top few % of Americans (probably any country). The kinds of people who are regularly posting on forums aren't even close to as technoretarded as most of our population.

    For anyone who is even half competent with something like Wireshark, identifying THAT you're using BitTorrent isn't difficult at all. Seeing what you're downloading is another story though. But...

    Your ISP has access to 100% of your up and down packets, they shouldn't even have a hard time putting the packets back together if they're encrypted, as they'll have the whole handshake process. Of course, in order to do so they would have to actually capture your data as it went through their network (as opposed to just metadata and metrics) which would probably lead to a shitstorm as soon as people found out that was going on.


    No one is going to crack SSL. No man in the middle can.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 19:37:12.0 login to vote score 0
    twitch osx: Not sure where you are going there. 10 years ago... 600mb downloads or uploads were NOT common for the ISP I worked for which offered 56k only, and just rolled out a WAN. We didn't offer DSL or Cable over our systems.

    600mb is about the size of a CD.
    sabine 745 2012-03-15 19:38:45.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: they shouldn't even have a hard time putting the packets back together if they're encrypted, as they'll have the whole handshake process

    Umm, really? That would be some pretty useless encryption.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:39:59.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: I figured out pretty quickly that underclocking the modem would let me keep it going for--in some cases--longer than a month.

    My IBM Aptiva was rock solid. The phone connection was my bane.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:41:07.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Speaking as someone who regularly figured out how to download CDs across a 28.8 connection, you're pretty naive.

    Dude, you have no clue. I regularly figured out how to download large files (one in particular... almost 400mb) and that raped me. Because my 56k connection would drop after 6 hours of continuous activity by the phone company, I'd have to resume each day. Did that for about a week and eventually got the disk image for the game. Installed and it failed. Installed again, failed. Installed again and my HD was FULL but nothing had actually been installed as far as I could tell. I was down to 0kb on my HD. I ended up popping in the MacOS 8 or whatever it was CD, and installing a BARE minimum OS onto a ZIP disk. Then when the 5mb left on that 100mb ZIP disk, I installed Norton Disk Doctor. I booted the computer from the ZIP disk (good luck doing that back then on a Windows box) and then ran the Nortons to fix the HD issue.

    So, yea, I've been there, done that.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:41:58.0 login to vote score 0
    strayling: 600mb is about the size of a CD.

    No shit.
    impasse 820 2012-03-15 19:42:02.0 login to vote score 1
    surfnazi: Nice.

    Goddamnit I can't remember the program I usually used to dial in.

    I remember there was Procomm, which had neat like macro settings and lots of fun ANSI support as well as war dialing capacity but didn't have zmodem. I wish I could recall the main program I used. Those were the days... When you could wardial all day and the worst that happened was your mom got mad at you being on the phone.


    Good ol' Procomm, I used to run that under an OS/2 dos session.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:42:26.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: My IBM Aptiva was rock solid. The phone connection was my bane.

    IBM Aptiva? Mwave modem? Those things were a nightmare.
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:43:15.0 login to vote score 0
    Also, anybody remember Hotline (or Hotwire, I foreget the name)? Started out for Mac only. Was fucking sweet. They eventually made a PC version and then it died. That was the shit after IRC.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 19:43:17.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: No one is going to crack SSL. No man in the middle can.

    Especially if it doesn't even touch their systems.
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:43:17.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: No one is going to crack SSL. No man in the middle can.

    If you say so.

    Aside from being wrong about that, Bit Torrent doesn't use SSL to encrypt its traffic unless you're using some sort of very unique client, in which case you're only slowing yourself down because no one else is.
    drew curtis 1098 2012-03-15 19:43:35.0 login to vote score 2
    impasse: Good ol' Procomm, I used to run that under an OS/2 dos session.

    I used to run that, but we called it IcyOS - if somebody else had it, you could chat with them while they assraped your modem.
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:43:37.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Umm, really? That would be some pretty useless encryption.

    I think I read somewhere that you can't plug in a coffee maker at the NSA for fear that the extra load might bring down their power network. Not sure what they are doing to max out their power consumption but I'm guessing it's not calculating the nth digit of pi.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:44:43.0 login to vote score 0
    clifton: IBM Aptiva? Mwave modem? Those things were a nightmare.

    No older than that, or at least didn't have that "feature".

    Good ol' US Robotics 28.8
    thundercunt 3431 2012-03-15 19:46:54.0 login to vote score 2
    saw the word buttrapefest, thought it was some kind of Indian holiday
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:47:14.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: No older than that, or at least didn't have that "feature".

    Good ol' US Robotics 28.8


    Those mwaves were horrid. A class action law suit was brought against IBM due to the awfulness of those modems. I think Aptiva customers who signed up for the suit received a check towards a purchase of a new modem.

    Oh yeah, USRs were rock solid.
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:47:25.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: Umm, really? That would be some pretty useless encryption.

    BitTorrent encryption was never intended to be terribly secure, it was intended to make identification harder thereby make throttling more difficult for service providers.
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:47:52.0 login to vote score 0
    God, I don't miss the screeching though...
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:48:29.0 login to vote score 0
    clifton: Those mwaves were horrid. A class action law suit was brought against IBM due to the awfulness of those modems. I think Aptiva customers who signed up for the suit received a check towards a purchase of a new modem.

    Oh yeah, USRs were rock solid.


    Weird that I'm not recalling the mwave. I guess I just didn't have that shit in there. 486sx50 oc'd to 135mhz, would run for months on end. Win 3.11
    twitch osx 948 2012-03-15 19:48:53.0 login to vote score 0
    Well fuck it. I'm going to the bar for a few. GO RAIDERS! ... wait.. this thread isn't about that. Oh well. Fuck ISP's that report to the whores.
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:49:18.0 login to vote score 1
    surfnazi: Win 3.11

    I think you meant to say DOS 5.0... :P

    /or was it 6?
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:49:21.0 login to vote score 2
    kang: I think I read somewhere that you can't plug in a coffee maker at the NSA for fear that the extra load might bring down their power network. Not sure what they are doing to max out their power consumption but I'm guessing it's not calculating the nth digit of pi.

    Part true. You can't plug in a coffee maker without permission. Because you can't do that in any DOD (yes the NSA is a DOD entity) building. Maybe not in any Federal Gov't building.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 19:50:02.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Weird that I'm not recalling the mwave. I guess I just didn't have that shit in there. 486sx50 oc'd to 135mhz, would run for months on end. Win 3.11

    Ah makes since. The mwaves were included with the Aptivas in the late 90s.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:50:12.0 login to vote score 1
    kang: I think you meant to say DOS 5.0... :P

    /or was it 6?


    I'm thinking 5. That was a long time ago.
    impasse 820 2012-03-15 19:51:05.0 login to vote score 0
    kang: I think you meant to say DOS 5.0... :P

    /or was it 6?


    I got up to 6.22 at one point. Probably still have the floppies somewhere.
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:51:14.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: Part true. You can't plug in a coffee maker without permission. Because you can't do that in any DOD (yes the NSA is a DOD entity) building. Maybe not in any Federal Gov't building.

    Interesting. Well, it made for a nice conspiracy theory while it lasted anyway...
    sabine 745 2012-03-15 19:51:28.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: BitTorrent encryption was never intended to be terribly secure, it was intended to make identification harder thereby make throttling more difficult for service providers.

    Oh, OK. Never used it. Wonder why they didn't just use SSL.
    hell toupee 114 2012-03-15 19:52:21.0 login to vote score 5
    So, BitTorrent.

    When you download from BitTorrent you connect to a tracker and say "Hello Mr. Tracker, I would like to join the swarm with the id INFOHASH".

    The tracker then says "Well hello there, here are a bunch of people to connect to!"

    You then say "thanks pal!" and off you go connecting to these other users. When you do connect you send to them information on what pieces you have, and then send you info on what pieces they have.

    If either of you have pieces the other needs then you start to transfer to each other.

    Additionally there's something called "Peer Exchange". This is when one peer tells another peer about OTHER peers that it knows about. This lets the swarm continue when the tracker is down or can tell you about peers downloading the same torrent but using different trackers (since the same torrent can be hosted on various trackers and a .torrent file may not include all of them.

    So what does this all mean for monitoring?

    The easiest way is that a monitoring system searches for torrents they want to monitor. Then they connect to the tracker and say "Hi, I'd like to join this swarm" and the tracker politely hands over your IP. Then they connect to you and say "Hi, I'd like this file, and I don't have any of it". You politely respond "oh, okay, here are the pieces that I have". Hell, then can even keep connecting and figure out how fast you're downloading.

    And then they send a letter to your ISP and you're fucked.

    So what can you do? Private trackers help. Turning off PEX helps. Don't think that your tracker is really "private" though. Sticking with older content helps too, they're more concerned about protecting the latest blockbuster than movies from the 80s.

    Any other questions?
    hell toupee 114 2012-03-15 19:53:05.0 login to vote score 2
    doh, the point: it doesn't matter who your ISP is, you'll still be found.
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 19:53:11.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Umm, really? That would be some pretty useless encryption.

    PPK is unbreakable
    kang 636 2012-03-15 19:53:21.0 login to vote score 0
    impasse: I got up to 6.22 at one point. Probably still have the floppies somewhere.

    Same here. Plus the old extended memory manager because as it turned out 640k wasn't even enough for Win 3.11...
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 19:55:57.0 login to vote score 0
    strayling: Especially if it doesn't even touch their systems.

    True too. And ssl establishes an unbreakable symetric encryption after the PPK handshake. So you can't break it with all the packets. And it's fast.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 19:56:36.0 login to vote score 3
    kang: Same here. Plus the old extended memory manager because as it turned out 640k wasn't even enough for Win 3.11...

    Ah the good ol' days juggling TSRs
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 19:57:36.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: If you say so.

    Aside from being wrong about that, Bit Torrent doesn't use SSL to encrypt its traffic unless you're using some sort of very unique client, in which case you're only slowing yourself down because no one else is.


    It's why i don't use torrent.

    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 19:59:30.0 login to vote score 2
    kang: Interesting. Well, it made for a nice conspiracy theory while it lasted anyway...

    Just a little bit of Google will show you a few things - 1) NSA has data centers spread all over the country now a days, in part to avoid such issues. 2) they WERE dangerously close to maxing out Baltimore's power grid for a while (which, when combined with regulations about what you're allowed to have plugged in) may have been what started the rumor.


    sabine: Oh, OK. Never used it. Wonder why they didn't just use SSL.

    With any crypto you're trading off speed for security. SSL is a LOT slower (pretty damn quick to set up one connection on a modern computer/network connection to be fair, but do that a few thousand times and you're going to be able to measure the speed difference) than what BitTorrent uses. Like I said earlier, security wasn't the true goal of encrypted BitTorrent, so they went for speed instead.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-15 20:00:00.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: True too. And ssl establishes an unbreakable symetric encryption after the PPK handshake. So you can't break it with all the packets. And it's fast.

    Yeah about that
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 20:02:14.0 login to vote score 1
    Programs like retroshare have mesh nets with friend to friend trust webs. so you can set it up that even if you get in, you only see the cluster of friends. and they can anonomize content source. Additionally they send enough spoof traffic to stop traffic inspection.
    impasse 820 2012-03-15 20:02:21.0 login to vote score 3
    surfnazi: Ah the good ol' days juggling TSRs


    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-15 20:03:08.0 login to vote score 0
    I use Macs and I don't do bittorent downloading/stealing/borrowing/pirating/sharing crap, so this stuff is of no concern to me.
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 20:03:31.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Yeah about that

    read closer. YOU CAN'T BREAK THE PPK OR THE LARGE KEY SYMETRIC ENCRYPTION


    quinblake 1476 2012-03-15 20:03:57.0 login to vote score 0
    trigonman3: That "snail-mailing hard drives to Canada" thing from a while back may be getting closer to reality.

    We're got our own SOPA/PIPA style shit shit to deal with too, coincidentally right after we got a majority conservative government.
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 20:04:17.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: Yeah about that

    Yeah, SSL is tough to break, but given enough time anything is vulnerable. Good encryption isn't unbreakable, it will just take so long that both you and the person you sent it to are dead of old age before it cracks, so you don't care anymore.

    sabine 745 2012-03-15 20:06:21.0 login to vote score 0
    little hands of concrete: I use Macs and I don't do bittorent downloading/stealing/borrowing/pirating/sharing crap, so this stuff is of no concern to me.

    "First they came..."
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 20:06:27.0 login to vote score 1
    cmbyrd: Yeah, SSL is tough to break, but given enough time anything is vulnerable. Good encryption isn't unbreakable, it will just take so long that both you and the person you sent it to are dead of old age before it cracks, so you don't care anymore.

    I'm in the field. You're dead wrong.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-15 20:08:14.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: "First they came..."

    Hey ... this is not a nsfw thread ... Go Hoosiers!!!!


    quinblake 1476 2012-03-15 20:09:28.0 login to vote score 1
    cmbyrd: Yeah, SSL is tough to break, but given enough time anything is vulnerable. Good encryption isn't unbreakable, it will just take so long that both you and the person you sent it to are dead of old age before it cracks, so you don't care anymore.

    Yeah, until quantum computers get up and functioning.
    sabine 745 2012-03-15 20:10:21.0 login to vote score 1
    little hands of concrete: Hey ... this is not a nsfw thread ... Go Hoosiers!!!!

    I'm still depressed about losing to Vanderbilt. It's worrisome IMHO if encryption gets demonized as something that only pirates and pedos use.
    strayling 20 2012-03-15 20:17:48.0 login to vote score 2
    Excuse me while I speculate wildly for a sec:

    A modern day Johnny Appleseed travels the nation dropping off solar powered wireless access points. It won't happen that way of course, but I think the days of the ISP/backbone gatekeepers are numbered.
    cmbyrd 693 2012-03-15 20:19:38.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: I'm in the field. You're dead wrong.

    Of course you are. Of course I am.


    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-15 20:22:11.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: I'm still depressed about losing to Vanderbilt. It's worrisome IMHO if encryption gets demonized as something that only pirates and pedos use.

    I picked Vandy, but I found myself wishing Harvard would win. As far as this stuff you guys are talking about, it is so far over my head I just thought I would post my typical inane comments in a computer geek thread. The number of computer geeks on bN is impressive.

    I have only posted here and on Fark. For the pros out there, does bN seem to harbour a large proportion of computers geeks? Or, is that typical of just about any forum like this?


    brazil 316 2012-03-15 20:27:08.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: I'm still depressed about losing to Vanderbilt. It's worrisome IMHO if encryption gets demonized as something that only pirates and pedos use.

    Only criminals use guns.

    Only the guilty use a defense lawyer.

    Only drug trafficers refuse car searches.

    Implied guilt. Tool to authoritarians.
    sabine 745 2012-03-15 20:28:33.0 login to vote score 1
    little hands of concrete: so far over my head

    Basically, the same technology that enables pirates to pirate and pedos to share their CP is needed to secure personal and business transactions and protect dissidents and whistleblowers.
    brazil 316 2012-03-15 20:30:45.0 login to vote score 0
    cmbyrd: Of course you are. Of course I am.

    I doubt you've worked on designing and coding encrypted security systems for large international banks. I have. Seriously, read up on ppk.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-15 20:32:43.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Basically, the same technology that enables pirates to pirate and pedos to share their CP is needed to secure personal and business transactions and protect dissidents and whistleblowers.

    So, the ISPs may think you're a pedo pirate when your are just conducting legal or personal affairs? And, they think this because you are using encryptions, tipping them off and, thus, the isp begins a neighborhood watch on your internet doings?


    someone who may or may not be Obvious 2012-03-15 20:39:05.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 20:41:04.0 login to vote score 2
    twitch osx: Dude, you have no clue. [snip evidence of having no clue of how to d/l large files on slow flaky connections]

    So, yea, I've been there, done that.


    Yep. You're naive.


    brazil: No one is going to crack SSL. No man in the middle can.

    Plenty of ways to compromise it, though, especially if the ISP serves you its own 'special' DNS and has certain CAs available to it....
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-15 20:42:29.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: Basically, the same technology that enables pirates to pirate and pedos to share their CP is needed to secure personal and business transactions and protect dissidents and whistleblowers.

    And, more to the point, it's the only thing that allows transactions-by-proxy to take place--without meaningful privacy, there is no way to authenticate that any individual authorized any transaction.
    sabine 745 2012-03-15 20:46:11.0 login to vote score 0
    little hands of concrete: So, the ISPs may think you're a pedo pirate when your are just conducting legal or personal affairs?

    That's one possibility. Another is that the government will criminalize usage of encryption that they can't break, which will significantly weaken the security of legitimate traffic.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 20:49:16.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: That's one possibility. Another is that the government will criminalize usage of encryption that they can't break, which will significantly weaken the security of legitimate traffic.

    Remember the SSSCA? That was scary stuff.
    clifton 1850 2012-03-15 20:51:05.0 login to vote score 0
    Err, that wasnt the bill mandating that the govt gets mandatory back door access to all encryption. Still scary.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-15 20:52:54.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: That's one possibility. Another is that the government will criminalize usage of encryption that they can't break, which will significantly weaken the security of legitimate traffic.

    hmmmmm ... Go Hooisers!!!


    canu 5003 2012-03-15 21:01:27.0 login to vote score 3
    little hands of concrete: So, the ISPs may think you're a pedo pirate when your are just conducting legal or personal affairs? And, they think this because you are using encryptions, tipping them off and, thus, the isp begins a neighborhood watch on your internet doings?


    brazil 316 2012-03-15 23:42:47.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Yep. You're naive.




    Plenty of ways to compromise it, though, especially if the ISP serves you its own 'special' DNS and has certain CAs available to it....


    No. Unless they've physically stolen one of the end recipiants private keys.

    totalsecurity 1281 2012-03-15 23:57:57.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: No. Unless they've physically stolen one of the end recipiants private keys.

    There should be a code to inform others that they've been compromised.
    muninsfire 189 2012-03-16 05:08:09.0 login to vote score 0
    brazil: No. Unless they've physically stolen one of the end recipiants private keys.

    Or obtained one by fraud.

    \There are other weaknesses in SSL, too.
    If you logged in, you could post here.