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  • Police Chief May Lose Job Over Trayvon Martin Case



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    Comments 101 through 245 of 245 shown. Page 1 2
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:20:31.0 login to vote score 4
    flashlv: sloth, if the kid was on top of him, that is justification for self defense.

    It could be, though frankly sounds like the kid was just "Standing His Ground" against the creepy guy stalking him and reporting his movements to someone on the phone.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:21:34.0 login to vote score 3
    flashlv: sloth, if the kid was on top of him, that is justification for self defense.


    that was the kid defending himself.

    standing his ground, as it were.


    fatsean 3838 2012-03-22 12:22:44.0 login to vote score 1
    Sounds like even if Zimmerman won't get his day in criminal court, he very well may have to pay the piper in civil court. Kinda like OJ!
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:23:20.0 login to vote score 1
    fatsean: Sounds like even if Zimmerman won't get his day in criminal court, he very well may have to pay the piper in civil court. Kinda like OJ!

    I think he will be tried.


    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:24:07.0 login to vote score 3
    flashlv: I was getting to that, and you whining doesn't help.

    Oh, really. Oh, I'm so sorry that I interrupted the eight minutes it took for you to type (reads the rest of response) nothing at all. What did I interrupt...

    They confirmed his ID
    Ah, you're pretending that valaru actually meant "he said no and they said bye". Of course they took his ID, they talked to him didn't they?

    took his info down
    and did nothing with it to validate his background.

    probably took him to the station and questioned him.

    Yeah... "probably". So you refute valaru's possibly wrong understanding with a "maybe".

    Or at least they got all the info needed to start an investigation.
    half-assed and they didn't collect everything... like blood or whatever to do drug/alcohol testing on Zimmerman.
    They also corrected witnesses during statements, it seems.


    flashlv: Careful, you posted less than 15 words.

    Like I stated, there is a difference between succinct and terse/contrarian.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:26:31.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Several of the witnesses interviewed actually corroborate that he was blindsided, and the kid was on top of him, beating him, just before the shot.

    He claims he was blindsided at his truck. The kid has a right to surprise and tackle/whatever someone who is pursuing him, especially if he is pinned. We aren't playing by Colonial battle rules.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:27:07.0 login to vote score 2
    supergrover: Oh, really. Oh, I'm so sorry that I interrupted the eight minutes it took for you to type (reads the rest of response) nothing at all. What did I interrupt...

    They confirmed his ID
    Ah, you're pretending that valaru actually meant "he said no and they said bye". Of course they took his ID, they talked to him didn't they?

    took his info down
    and did nothing with it to validate his background.

    probably took him to the station and questioned him.

    Yeah... "probably". So you refute valaru's possibly wrong understanding with a "maybe".

    Or at least they got all the info needed to start an investigation.
    half-assed and they didn't collect everything... like blood or whatever to do drug/alcohol testing on Zimmerman.
    They also corrected witnesses during statements, it seems.




    Like I stated, there is a difference between succinct and terse/contrarian.


    but, he's getting to it...I'm sure.


    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:28:30.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: I think he will be tried.

    Painful as it sounds, I think he'll be acquitted - as wrong as his prior actions were (and they were very, very wrong) he did actually have the right to defend himself once the other party became the aggressor, had him pinned, and seemed intent on doing him bodily harm. No matter how much he deserved the beating (and he did).
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:28:52.0 login to vote score 1
    flashlv: sloth, if the kid was on top of him, that is justification for self defense.


    So if I start a fight and the other guy wins, I get to kill him? That is what your situation describes.

    He also had no duty or justification to pursue the kid. Nor would you if the kids you were watching panicked and ran. (Unless, since I feel I have to caveat every time with you, you witness them in the commission of a crime or they are possibly (and reasonably to assume) moving to harm someone else). Just because it doesn't feel right doesn't mean you get to even detain.
    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:30:22.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: that was the kid defending himself.

    standing his ground, as it were.



    Mutual combat.

    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:30:47.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru: but, he's getting to it...I'm sure.

    Silly me for interrupting. Stop posting, everyone, until flash gets the answer... but he must've refreshed, so EVERYONE post saying "we'll be quiet until you splain, lucy"
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:31:03.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: Painful as it sounds, I think he'll be acquitted - as wrong as his prior actions were (and they were very, very wrong) he did actually have the right to defend himself once the other party became the aggressor, had him pinned, and seemed intent on doing him bodily harm. No matter how much he deserved the beating (and he did).

    chicken or egg.

    it's a stand your ground state, who is to say the kid wasn't acting to defend himself.

    also, the law says force to force, I believe that would make using lethal force against an unarmed person excessive.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:32:08.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: Mutual combat.

    So you acknowledge that Zimmerman started the aggression? In order for the kid to not be standing his ground, he would have to be in combat already and to not start it and be involved in it infers that the other party initiated.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:33:01.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru:
    also, the law says force to force, I believe that would make using lethal force against an unarmed person excessive.



    flashlv:

    I didn't hear about that, and if true, others here need to see that.



    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:33:35.0 login to vote score 6
    flashlv: Mutual combat.

    So now it's mutual.

    not matter what, it's going to be the black kids fault in your world isn't it?

    no matter that happens, it can't be this cop-wanna-be's fault in your view.

    So only one of them, the one you identify more with, has the right to defend themselves.

    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:34:21.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: So if I start a fight and the other guy wins, I get to kill him? That is what your situation describes.

    He also had no duty or justification to pursue the kid. Nor would you if the kids you were watching panicked and ran. (Unless, since I feel I have to caveat every time with you, you witness them in the commission of a crime or they are possibly (and reasonably to assume) moving to harm someone else). Just because it doesn't feel right doesn't mean you get to even detain.


    Mutual combat, therefore either who used deadly force probably would have been justified.

    These scenarios are things that would get Zimmerman off.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:34:30.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Painful as it sounds, I think he'll be acquitted - as wrong as his prior actions were (and they were very, very wrong) he did actually have the right to defend himself once the other party became the aggressor, had him pinned, and seemed intent on doing him bodily harm. No matter how much he deserved the beating (and he did).

    You may know better than I, but I don't see why you would get to start the fight and also get to kill your way out of it. You are, aren't you, under obligation to NOT initiate if you fear for your life.

    You are prolly right about him being acquitted...
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:36:15.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: Mutual combat, therefore either who used deadly force probably would have been justified.

    These scenarios are things that would get Zimmerman off.


    If this kid surprised Zimmerman coming around the corner and popped Zimmerman so hard in the nose that it killed him, you would find that justified? (Equal force and all)

    If Zimmerman had that gun out during pursuit, or announced he had it, the kid is more justified in kicking his ass.
    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:36:22.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: So you acknowledge that Zimmerman started the aggression? In order for the kid to not be standing his ground, he would have to be in combat already and to not start it and be involved in it infers that the other party initiated.>>

    No I don't acknowledge that.

    The kid being on top shows he could have been the aggressor.
    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:37:56.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: If this kid surprised Zimmerman coming around the corner and popped Zimmerman so hard in the nose that it killed him, you would find that justified? (Equal force and all)

    If Zimmerman had that gun out during pursuit, or announced he had it, the kid is more justified in kicking his ass.


    No, because following someone isn't grounds for deadly force IMO.

    It's like shooting someone in the back.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:38:01.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru: chicken or egg.

    it's a stand your ground state, who is to say the kid wasn't acting to defend himself.


    The fact that the kid initiated the physical violence - or at least that the preponderance of statements so far support that allegation. It's going to come down to a question of whether Zimmerman's creepy stalking will be considered "instigating."

    valaru: also, the law says force to force, I believe that would make using lethal force against an unarmed person excessive.

    Not if that unarmed person has you pinned on your back and seems intent on doing grievous bodily harm to you - and it's not going to help that the person doing the beating was 6'3". Creepy self-appointed neighborhood watchman has a pretty good case here.
    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:38:39.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: So now it's mutual.

    not matter what, it's going to be the black kids fault in your world isn't it?

    no matter that happens, it can't be this cop-wanna-be's fault in your view.

    So only one of them, the one you identify more with, has the right to defend themselves.



    Give me evidence Zimmerman did something illegal.

    flashlv 1657 2012-03-22 12:39:56.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: chicken or egg.

    it's a stand your ground state, who is to say the kid wasn't acting to defend himself.

    also, the law says force to force, I believe that would make using lethal force against an unarmed person excessive.


    It doesn't say that at all.

    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:40:25.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover: You may know better than I, but I don't see why you would get to start the fight and also get to kill your way out of it. You are, aren't you, under obligation to NOT initiate if you fear for your life.

    The thing is, he _didn't_ start the fight - both of the witnesses who actually witnessed the start of the fight agree on that. What he did was creep the kid out and put him in a situation where he thought he was going to have something bad happen to him - and I don't put real good odds on a jury saying that meets the legal definition of "instigation." It could happen, I just wouldn't bet on it.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 12:43:41.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: The thing is, he _didn't_ start the fight - both of the witnesses who actually witnessed the start of the fight agree on that. What he did was creep the kid out and put him in a situation where he thought he was going to have something bad happen to him - and I don't put real good odds on a jury saying that meets the legal definition of "instigation." It could happen, I just wouldn't bet on it.

    So you're suggesting the kid was not in a position where he had the right to stand his ground?
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 12:43:42.0 login to vote score 1
    maybe we'll get lucky and someone will 'act in self defense' when they see Zimdog on the street

    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:45:00.0 login to vote score 2
    flashlv: No, because following someone isn't grounds for deadly force IMO.

    It's like shooting someone in the back.


    Stand Your Ground. Strange dude creeping behind you and chases you when you run and pins you. Just as reasonable fear for safety as Zimmerman could have before beginning the footrace.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:45:50.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: The thing is, he _didn't_ start the fight - both of the witnesses who actually witnessed the start of the fight agree on that. What he did was creep the kid out and put him in a situation where he thought he was going to have something bad happen to him - and I don't put real good odds on a jury saying that meets the legal definition of "instigation." It could happen, I just wouldn't bet on it.

    If the kid felt threatened, well... what I just posted to Flash.

    [I thought I had asked bout the witnesses saying he didn't start it, but I guess I didn't thanks for following up and clarifying to some degree]
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:47:18.0 login to vote score 0
    surfnazi: So you're suggesting the kid was not in a position where he had the right to stand his ground?

    I'm saying I wouldn't put odds on a jury finding that he met the legal requirements for being justified in initiating physical force.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:47:44.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: The fact that the kid initiated the physical violence - or at least that the preponderance of statements so far support that allegation. It's going to come down to a question of whether Zimmerman's creepy stalking will be considered "instigating."

    I grabbed and chucked someone who I thought was stalking me in the halls at college some years back. Turned out he was trying to get monies from others earlier. Of course, I didn't climb on the guy and whale away, either.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:47:53.0 login to vote score 1
    whale? wail?
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:49:40.0 login to vote score 4
    sloth: The fact that the kid initiated the physical violence - or at least that the preponderance of statements so far support that allegation. It's going to come down to a question of whether Zimmerman's creepy stalking will be considered "instigating."

    Not if that unarmed person has you pinned on your back and seems intent on doing grievous bodily harm to you - and it's not going to help that the person doing the beating was 6'3". Creepy self-appointed neighborhood watchman has a pretty good case here.



    Whether he initiated the violence or not (which has yet to be determined) he could have been scared for his life, and defending himself, as the law allows.

    for the shooting, there are reports of the kid yelling no, stop, etc. Which, to me, point to;

    a)he saw the gun

    b) he disengaged (if he was still engaged at the time)

    so, it will have to go to court, but if I was the DA I would be arguing that the 911 calls point to the fact that any physical altercation was over by this point, and zimmerman, in a fit of rage still decided to pull the trigger, even though the threat was neutralized.

    adding to my case would be zimmerman's history, his reputation as a loose cannon

    also, he was told that he didn't need to follow the kid.

    sounds like a slam dunk case to me.


    and that is IF the kid attacked first, these witness reports can be the ones the police "corrected"

    which should be another criminal case alltogether.

    witnesses say the kid was calling for help, again showing he was in fear for his safety.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:50:17.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: I'm saying I wouldn't put odds on a jury finding that he met the legal requirements for being justified in initiating physical force.

    but killing him is a-ok?
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 12:50:33.0 login to vote score 2
    supergrover: whale? wail?


    code_7 6865 2012-03-22 12:52:09.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover:
    Like I stated, there is a difference between succinct and terse/contrarian.



    Hey man, quit interrupting him!!!

    Jeeze, can't even let a brotha talk!

    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:53:31.0 login to vote score 1
    flashlv: It doesn't say that at all.

     A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:53:48.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: If the kid felt threatened, well... what I just posted to Flash.

    They both felt threatened, for different reasons :)

    supergrover: [I thought I had asked bout the witnesses saying he didn't start it, but I guess I didn't thanks for following up and clarifying to some degree]

    link


    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 12:55:56.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: They both felt threatened, for different reasons :)

    link


    that link is over a week old.. i think the stories have changed since then

    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:56:50.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: They both felt threatened, for different reasons :)



    link


    fox news!!!!

    and was this the "corrected" statements
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:57:25.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: but killing him is a-ok?

    If he reasonably believed it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself (which is likely to be upheld given the fact that he was pinned and getting beaten), and if his previous stalking did not rise to the level of "instigation," yes.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 12:58:38.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: If he reasonably believed it was necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself (which is likely to be upheld given the fact that he was pinned and getting beaten), and if his previous stalking did not rise to the level of "instigation," yes.

    he outweighed the kid by quite a bit.

    if he was half the size, maybe.


    sloth 222 2012-03-22 12:58:42.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: fox news!!!!

    and was this the "corrected" statements


    That's fox orlando, not fox news - different entities. And what do you mean "corrected?" I haven't heard anything about this. Of course the situation changes greatly if the kid didn't initiate force, or didn't have him in a position where he could reasonably fear serious harm.
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 12:59:48.0 login to vote score 1
    BREAKING: Police Chief in Sanford, Fla., Stepping Aside Amid Shooting Controversy
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 12:59:58.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: They both felt threatened, for different reasons :)

    That law is shitty. Not that I think Zimmerman would have done anything differently, but he would at least be not scot free in this.

    link

    Where is the part that said the witnesses said Martin started the physical part?


    My phone tells me Billy Lee stepped down.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:02:02.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: That's fox orlando, not fox news - different entities. And what do you mean "corrected?" I haven't heard anything about this. Of course the situation changes greatly if the kid didn't initiate force, or didn't have him in a position where he could reasonably fear serious harm.

    the fox news was a joke.

    and it came out the the police "corrected" certain witnesses, when they said it was the kid calling for help, the police told them it was zimmerman calling for help.

    the age of your link makes me question if it was one of these.


    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:02:03.0 login to vote score 4
    And, catching up on the discussion . . .

    Contrarians gonna contrary.
    ambition chicken 290 2012-03-22 13:03:16.0 login to vote score 3
    finnley wren: And, catching up on the discussion . . .

    Contrarians gonna contrary.


    For what lulz, I don't know.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:03:25.0 login to vote score 4
    finnley wren: And, catching up on the discussion . . .

    Contrarians gonna contrary.


    no they don't.
    ambition chicken 290 2012-03-22 13:04:09.0 login to vote score 3
    valaru: no they don't.

    Yes they do.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:04:22.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: and it came out the the police "corrected" certain witnesses, when they said it was the kid calling for help, the police told them it was zimmerman calling for help.

    the age of your link makes me question if it was one of these.


    Ah. Yeah, hadn't heard that one. Shitty if true.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:04:49.0 login to vote score 2
    sloth: That's fox orlando, not fox news - different entities. And what do you mean "corrected?" I haven't heard anything about this. Of course the situation changes greatly if the kid didn't initiate force, or didn't have him in a position where he could reasonably fear serious harm.

    link
    Allegations of serious police misconduct have arisen, including the "correction" of a witness who said the boy called for help and not his attacker, George Zimmerman, who claims he shot in self defense.


    Other stuff

    • Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen’s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.

    • Police said witness statements supported Zimmerman’s account. But several of the witnesses expressed surprise, telling The Herald that they reported hearing someone crying for help just before a shot ended the cries. The 911 tapes of witness calls bolstered their claims.

    • One of the witnesses who heard the crying said she called a detective repeatedly, but said he was not interested because her account differed from Zimmerman’s.

    • For nearly a month, police never noticed a profanity Zimmerman mumbled under his breath when he called police, which some people believe was accompanied by a muffled racial slur.

    • Even though investigators have the dead boy’s cell phone, it was Trayvon’s father who combed through the phone records to discover that his son was talking to a girlfriend in the moments that led up to his death.

    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:05:22.0 login to vote score 4
    ambition chicken: Yes they do.

    I was going to say that, if you gave me time, jeebus, keep your pants on!!!
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:05:44.0 login to vote score 4
    valaru: no they don't.


    ambition chicken: Yes they do.

    STOP IT I"M TRYING TO THINK!


    or
    \YOU'RE TEARING UUSSS APPPPAAAAAAARTT!
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:07:20.0 login to vote score 2
    sloth: Ah. Yeah, hadn't heard that one. Shitty if true.

    It's been confirmed that corrections happened, don't know if it was your witness though.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 13:07:50.0 login to vote score 2
    valaru: I was going to say that, if you gave me time, jeebus, keep your pants on!!!

    VICTIM!!

    vic rattlehead 1283 2012-03-22 13:08:41.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover: whale? wail?

    It's whale.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:09:05.0 login to vote score 1
    baron muchhumpin: VICTIM!!

    aren't we all?
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:10:42.0 login to vote score 3
    ambition chicken: For what lulz, I don't know.

    Some corporations, concerned with evolving a culture of "yes men" that will not question senior management, often appoint a rotating "devil's advocate" in decision-making meetings, to question every decision eight ways to Sunday, no matter how bizarre the questioning might seem, to preclude groupthink.

    However, they make sure to rotate that position, so the rest of the company won't think they're just being a dick.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 13:10:43.0 login to vote score 3
    valaru: aren't we all?

    once a certain critter shows up, yessir

    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:11:32.0 login to vote score 4
    finnley wren: Some corporations, concerned with evolving a culture of "yes men" that will not question senior management, often appoint a rotating "devil's advocate" in decision-making meetings, to question every decision eight ways to Sunday, no matter how bizarre the questioning might seem, to preclude groupthink.

    However, they make sure to rotate that position, so the rest of the company won't think they're just being a dick.


    Grahams needs to ask Flash to step down. I think he's being a dick.

    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:11:42.0 login to vote score 3
    finnley wren: Some corporations, concerned with evolving a culture of "yes men" that will not question senior management, often appoint a rotating "devil's advocate" in decision-making meetings, to question every decision eight ways to Sunday, no matter how bizarre the questioning might seem, to preclude groupthink.

    However, they make sure to rotate that position, so the rest of the company won't think they're just being a dick.


    I would love that job....I have that job.

    I am the dick, who questions everything.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:12:11.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: Grahams needs to ask Flash to step down. I think he's being a dick.

    for some, it's natural.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:12:40.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: link Allegations of serious police misconduct have arisen, including the "correction" of a witness who said the boy called for help and not his attacker, George Zimmerman, who claims he shot in self defense.

    Nothing personal, but do you have a link that isn't the Huffington Post and/or doesn't get the facts of the case wrong in the first paragraph?

    Your other link is much better, and nicely summarizes a lot of the issues with how this case was handled, but doesn't mention the "correction."
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 13:13:30.0 login to vote score 4
    valaru: I would love that job....I have that job.

    I am the dick, who questions everything.


    Are you?
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:13:40.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Nothing personal, but do you have a link that isn't the Huffington Post and/or doesn't get the facts of the case wrong in the first paragraph?

    Your other link is much better, and nicely summarizes a lot of the issues with how this case was handled, but doesn't mention the "correction."


    It's been mentioned by ABC news, I am just too lazy to look up the link.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:13:55.0 login to vote score 1
    surfnazi: Are you?

    am I?
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 13:14:06.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: am I?

    what?
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:15:30.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Some corporations, concerned with evolving a culture of "yes men" that will not question senior management, often appoint a rotating "devil's advocate" in decision-making meetings, to question every decision eight ways to Sunday, no matter how bizarre the questioning might seem, to preclude groupthink.

    fwiw, the term "Devil's Advocate" actually comes from the Roman Catholic Church - he's the guy that tries to prove a candidate for sainthood really wasn't all that saintly.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:15:48.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru: It's been mentioned by ABC news, I am just too lazy to look up the link.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T2uIKhEgfY9

    ha, I posted a link earlier that mentions it.

    other stories get into more detail
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:15:56.0 login to vote score 1
    surfnazi: what?

    who?
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:16:23.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: It's been mentioned by ABC news, I am just too lazy to look up the link.

    Fair 'nuff - I'll take your word for it, but that HuffPo piece is awful, and blatantly inaccurate on other points, so I really wouldn't use it to support anything.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:16:38.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: fwiw, the term "Devil's Advocate" actually comes from the Roman Catholic Church - he's the guy that tries to prove a candidate for sainthood really wasn't all that saintly.

    that is just roman catholic propaganda.

    /not really.
    totalsecurity 1281 2012-03-22 13:18:16.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: So if I start a fight and the other guy wins, I get to kill him? That is what your situation describes.

    He also had no duty or justification to pursue the kid. Nor would you if the kids you were watching panicked and ran. (Unless, since I feel I have to caveat every time with you, you witness them in the commission of a crime or they are possibly (and reasonably to assume) moving to harm someone else). Just because it doesn't feel right doesn't mean you get to even detain.


    I don't think so. I worked one winter as a "Doorman" (really a bouncer) and a rough club. One night a guy pulled a knife, and we beat and kicked him into the middle of the street, where he pulled ANOTHER knife on a cop. The cop didn't like that at all. Out came the baton, and he whipped they guy.

    Another night we threw a guy out (this happened quite frequently, as there always seemed to be somebody, 99% male and 1% female, that apparently just wanted to go out for an ass-kicking). After closing, he's waiting out side and tries to start a conversation with me. I tell him I'm tired and going home. I reach for the handle on my truck and he slams the door shut. Using my favorite move (a leg sweep coupled with my hand on the throat), he's on the ground, and I deal a couple of blows to his face. The whole thing took about 10 seconds. Well shit, I cut my pinkie knuckle, and his face is open and bleeding in the snow. That's why I don't like to punch people in the face (I'm more of a headbutting, limb-twisting, choke-out kind of guy). He recovers and starts sputtering "You know who I am? My Dad owns..." "Shut off motherfucker. Take your ass home." What's your name?" "Nunjo. Now I'm getting in my truck and leaving." I called the owners of the bar, who were inside fucking the remnants, and went to an all-night clinic for an exam.

    Nothing was ever said about it.

    There were some other incidents, I always got off.
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:19:08.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: fwiw, the term "Devil's Advocate" actually comes from the Roman Catholic Church - he's the guy that tries to prove a candidate for sainthood really wasn't all that saintly.

    I am aware. Thanks, though.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:20:58.0 login to vote score 3
    sloth: Nothing personal, but do you have a link that isn't the Huffington Post and/or doesn't get the facts of the case wrong in the first paragraph?

    Your other link is much better, and nicely summarizes a lot of the issues with how this case was handled, but doesn't mention the "correction."


    abc
    But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

    Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

    The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.

    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:21:21.0 login to vote score 4
    totalsecurity: There were some other incidents, I always got off.

    I don't think we needed this detail.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:22:14.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Fair 'nuff - I'll take your word for it, but that HuffPo piece is awful, and blatantly inaccurate on other points, so I really wouldn't use it to support anything.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/21/trayvon-martin-civil-rights-police-chief-resignation?newsfeed=true


    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:22:43.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: I would love that job....I have that job.

    I am the dick, who questions everything.


    surfnazi: Are you?

    He's that little dick that pops up on your screen when you're visiting xhampster or whatever... "You look like you're about to masturbate... would you like some (product)?"
    brazil 316 2012-03-22 13:22:53.0 login to vote score 0
    Can't we just shoot a Cuban and call it even?
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:23:04.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: abc
    But after the shooting, a source inside the police department told ABC News that a narcotics detective and not a homicide detective first approached Zimmerman. The detective pepppered Zimmerman with questions, the source said, rather than allow Zimmerman to tell his story. Questions can lead a witness, the source said.

    Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.

    The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help.


    Mmkay, they corrected her while she was giving the statement? Funny. He was probably just trying to confirm what she said, but it's still rather improper. Anyway, that's not the one I posted earlier - that one was from a dude.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:23:59.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Fair 'nuff - I'll take your word for it, but that HuffPo piece is awful, and blatantly inaccurate on other points, so I really wouldn't use it to support anything.

    yeah, I just googd [trayvon correcting witness]. I should have used more discretion.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 13:24:07.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: I don't think we needed this detail.


    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:24:18.0 login to vote score 1
    brazil: Can't we just shoot a Cuban and call it even?

    no, I like Cuba.
    vic rattlehead 1283 2012-03-22 13:24:48.0 login to vote score 3
    This is why we can't have nice things.

    I think that the law in Florida was meant to be a shield for those who truly act in self defense by removing the question of whether they could have withdrawn. However, as with most laws, the language is really poorly drafted so that it basically allows anyone to claim they were in fear for their life.

    It seems to me that the second Zimmerman called the police, and was instructed to stand down, any further actions or contact make him liable for his actions. I fully support the right of citizens to be armed and defend themselves, and I would even support a right to stand your ground where you are 100% the victim, but if you involved yourself in a situation where there is a likelihood that it could escalate to violence (like chasing a suspicious individual) then you should have to be held to a higher standard.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 13:25:19.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: He's that little dick that pops up on your screen when you're visiting xhampster or whatever... "You look like you're about to masturbate... would you like some (product)?"

    I hate that shit. I'm about to jerk it, no I don't want to send time giving you all my personal information and money in order to jerk it.
    totalsecurity 1281 2012-03-22 13:25:41.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: I don't think we needed this detail.

    "Need" ain't always "got", now is it.
    someone who may or may not be Just sayin' 2012-03-22 13:26:02.0 login to vote score 0
    Is this where we try to out-obfuscate flash?
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 13:26:11.0 login to vote score 0
    That second sentence can work as a reply, or as a completely unconnected an unnecessary statement of fact.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:26:12.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Mmkay, they corrected her while she was giving the statement? Funny. He was probably just trying to confirm what she said, but it's still rather improper. Anyway, that's not the one I posted earlier - that one was from a dude.

    I'm not sure what the last sentence was about. I wasn't correcting something you said, you had asked.
    brazil 316 2012-03-22 13:26:16.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Mmkay, they corrected her while she was giving the statement? Funny. He was probably just trying to confirm what she said, but it's still rather improper. Anyway, that's not the one I posted earlier - that one was from a dude.

    I like to just print up the statements and have witnesses sign them.


    Very tidy.
    brazil 316 2012-03-22 13:27:38.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: no, I like Cuba.

    Well if he's here, isn't he. traitor?

    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:27:48.0 login to vote score 1
    vic rattlehead: This is why we can't have nice things.

    I think that the law in Florida was meant to be a shield for those who truly act in self defense by removing the question of whether they could have withdrawn. However, as with most laws, the language is really poorly drafted so that it basically allows anyone to claim they were in fear for their life.

    It seems to me that the second Zimmerman called the police, and was instructed to stand down, any further actions or contact make him liable for his actions. I fully support the right of citizens to be armed and defend themselves, and I would even support a right to stand your ground where you are 100% the victim, but if you involved yourself in a situation where there is a likelihood that it could escalate to violence (like chasing a suspicious individual kid who is running because you have been eyeballing him for no reason) then you should have to be held to a higher standard.



    ftfm.

    vic rattlehead 1283 2012-03-22 13:30:46.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover: ftfm.

    I was simply giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, and putting the responsibility on him. If he really thought the guy was dangerous, then chasing him was escalating the situation needlessly. In this case it's perception not reality that matters in judging the conduct of Zimmerman.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:30:59.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Mmkay, they corrected her while she was giving the statement? Funny. He was probably just trying to confirm what she said, but it's still rather improper. Anyway, that's not the one I posted earlier - that one was from a dude.

    there was more than one corrected statements reported.

    which makes me think it's a pattern.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:32:35.0 login to vote score 1
    vic rattlehead: I was simply giving Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt, and putting the responsibility on him. If he really thought the guy was dangerous, then chasing him was escalating the situation needlessly. In this case it's perception not reality that matters in judging the conduct of Zimmerman.

    It's cool. That's why I 'FTFM' instead of 'FTFY'.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:33:19.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru: there was more than one corrected statements reported.

    which makes me think it's a pattern.


    Plus, the one cited was a teacher. Old enough and responsible to probably be able to differentiate between a correction and a call for clarification.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:34:45.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover: Plus, the one cited was a teacher. Old enough and responsible to probably be able to differentiate between a correction and a call for clarification.

    add to that, the past difficulties this police department had...


    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:37:04.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: add to that, the past difficulties this police department had...

    do tell
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:38:02.0 login to vote score 0
    supergrover: do tell

    In the other threads about his, the details are hazy, but one of the investigating officers had something on him, etc...
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:41:13.0 login to vote score 1
    vic rattlehead: I think that the law in Florida was meant to be a shield for those who truly act in self defense by removing the question of whether they could have withdrawn. However, as with most laws, the language is really poorly drafted so that it basically allows anyone to claim they were in fear for their life.

    It seems to me that the second Zimmerman called the police, and was instructed to stand down, any further actions or contact make him liable for his actions. I fully support the right of citizens to be armed and defend themselves, and I would even support a right to stand your ground where you are 100% the victim, but if you involved yourself in a situation where there is a likelihood that it could escalate to violence (like chasing a suspicious individual kid black person) then you should have to be held to a higher standard.


    supergrover: ftfm.

    FTFY
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:44:16.0 login to vote score 4
    supergrover: do tell

    from the wikipedia article

    News reports noted that the police department of the city of Sanford has been confronted with allegations of racial prejudice before.[45] The police chief in 2011, Brian Tooley, was forced from office after the son of a lieutenant was caught on camera beating up an unsuspecting homeless black man, but whom the department declined to prosecute. After the footage went viral on YouTube, the perpetrator, Justin Collison, was arrested.[45][46][47]The officer in charge of that case was also the one in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene.[9] In 2005, two parking lot security guards, one the son of a Sanford police department veteran and the other a volunteer for the department, shot a black teen, Travares McGill, in the back, killing him. They claimed self-defense, and the case was dismissed in court.[45][48]

    the bold is my own
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:45:05.0 login to vote score 0
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin
    sabine 745 2012-03-22 13:48:54.0 login to vote score 3
    supergrover: do tell

    2006: son of a Sanford cop and another police volunteer, working as security guards shot and killed a black man, claiming self-defense. Turned out they never identified themselves and the victim was shot in the back. No charges filed.

    2010: son of another Sanford cop assaulted a homeless black man, and was let go by officers on the scene. Video showed up on YouTube, eventually leading to the demise of the previous police chief.
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:50:46.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: 2006: son of a Sanford cop and another police volunteer, working as security guards shot and killed a black man, claiming self-defense. Turned out they never identified themselves and the victim was shot in the back. No charges filed.

    2010: son of another Sanford cop assaulted a homeless black man, and was let go by officers on the scene. Video showed up on YouTube, eventually leading to the demise of the previous police chief.



    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:51:18.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: 2006: son of a Sanford cop and another police volunteer, working as security guards shot and killed a black man, claiming self-defense. Turned out they never identified themselves and the victim was shot in the back. No charges filed.

    2010: son of another Sanford cop assaulted a homeless black man, and was let go by officers on the scene. Video showed up on YouTube, eventually leading to the demise of the previous police chief.


    sabine is not a quick1

    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 13:51:34.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: from the wikipedia article
    The officer in charge of that case was also the one in charge of the Trayvon Martin shooting scene.

    the bold is my own

    lovely.

    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 13:54:56.0 login to vote score 1
    supergrover: lovely.

    call me paranoid, but I am glad I am not black in that town.
    someone who may or may not be just say'in 2012-03-22 13:57:42.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: call me paranoid, but I am glad I am not black in that town.


    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 13:58:25.0 login to vote score 0
    someone who may or may not be just say'in:

    I thought better of it.

    Glad you didn't.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 13:59:15.0 login to vote score 2
    valaru: call me paranoid, but I am glad I am not black in that town.

    On the bright side, looks like the spics have it pretty sweet there.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 14:00:20.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 14:01:59.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: On the bright side, looks like the spics have it pretty sweet there.

    Think he's Jewish.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-22 14:02:50.0 login to vote score 1
    valaru: call me paranoid, but I am glad I am not black in that town.

    Whatever. Racism is over and for you to suggest that this has anything to do with race is just playing out that tired Lib Meme that white people have it out for black people. Get over it, please.


    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:04:32.0 login to vote score 0
    little hands of concrete: Whatever. Racism is over and for you to suggest that this has anything to do with race is just playing out that tired Lib Meme that [hispanic] people have it out for black people. Get over it, please.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:06:50.0 login to vote score 3
    Having though about this some more, I'm perfectly fine with the police chief stepping down/no confidence.

    We've only heard about this for a week, but this guy had three weeks and did nothing. This merited far more attention than that, even if they didn't arrest him that night.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:07:45.0 login to vote score 0
    little hands of concrete: Whatever. Racism is over and for you to suggest that this has anything to do with race is just playing out that tired Lib Meme that white people have it out for black people. Get over it, please.

    There's the trolling we've missed! Good to see you back on your game.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:09:21.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: call me paranoid, but I am glad I am not black in that town.

    Clearly you shouldn't have your name start with "Tra-".
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:10:20.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: There's the trolling we've missed! Good to see you back on your game.

    Eh, the blatant strawman schtick is tired, and already claim, but it's a start.
    sabine 745 2012-03-22 14:12:04.0 login to vote score 3
    so vote republican: this guy had three weeks and did nothing. This merited far more attention than that

    It seems to be even worse than "nothing". Looks like the actions the police did take attempted to spin things Zimmerman's way.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-22 14:12:14.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: There's the trolling we've missed! Good to see you back on your game.

    Trolling? I have been pretending to be a Lib pretty much since I have posting on bN. In the vernacular of our black southern friends, "Y'all mufuckers been gettin' played, yo."


    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:12:19.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Eh, the blatant strawman schtick is tired, and already claim, but it's a start.

    Naw, LHOC is the original in my book. Plus he doesn't call people names and stuff, so he gets the nod from me.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-03-22 14:13:28.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Eh, the blatant strawman schtick is tired, and already claim, but it's a start.

    Whatever. I don't even know what a strawman is, let alone know how to play one.


    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:13:39.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: It seems to be even worse than "nothing". Looks like the actions the police did take attempted to spin things Zimmerman's way.

    That too, definitely.
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:16:39.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Naw, LHOC is the original in my book. Plus he doesn't call people names and stuff, so he gets the nod from me.

    Oh, don't get me wrong, I love LHOC, and have missed him. This is definitely a step back in the right direction :)
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 14:16:52.0 login to vote score 0
    someone who may or may not be just say'in:

    ...well looking at how they get treated, yeah.

    I get enough flack as a jew, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a visible minority.
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 14:16:56.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Eh, the blatant strawman schtick is tired, and already claim, but it's a start.

    Know what else is tired?
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:17:30.0 login to vote score 2
    sabine: It seems to be even worse than "nothing". Looks like the actions the police did take attempted to spin things Zimmerman's way.

    Well, you know, if they decide that an actual crime occurred, there's just so much paperwork to do.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 14:17:43.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Oh, don't get me wrong, I love LHOC, and have missed him. This is definitely a step back in the right direction :)

    Yeah, I read that before I saw who it was from, and I was getting ready for a debate with phil.


    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:18:09.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: I get enough flack as a jew, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a visible minority.

    Not all Jews are invisible, val.
    fatsean 3838 2012-03-22 14:19:06.0 login to vote score 2
    finnley wren: Know what else is tired?

    Zimmerman's mom's orifices after a triple penetration gang-bang?

    /orifi?
    finnley wren 24 2012-03-22 14:20:07.0 login to vote score 1
    fatsean: Zimmerman's mom's orifices after a triple penetration gang-bang?

    /orifi?


    Exactly.
    supergrover 373 2012-03-22 14:22:50.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:23:07.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: ...well looking at how they get treated, yeah.

    I get enough flack as a jew, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a visible minority.


    Hmmm... "Zimmerman"?

    I know why everyone is so angry now!
    sabine 745 2012-03-22 14:27:07.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Well, you know, if they decide that an actual crime occurred, there's just so much paperwork to do.

    That gives me an idea. You know those icon-based keyboards they have for McDonalds counter staff, so they can place your order without having to be literate in English? There's gotta be a market for a law-enforcement version of those.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 14:30:03.0 login to vote score 2
    sabine: That gives me an idea. You know those icon-based keyboards they have for McDonalds counter staff, so they can place your order without having to be literate in English? There's gotta be a market for a law-enforcement version of those.

    Super-taze it!
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 14:39:15.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Hmmm... "Zimmerman"?

    I know why everyone is so angry now!


    he's hispanic.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 14:39:41.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: Not all Jews are invisible, val.

    no, but i am
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 14:41:53.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: no, but i am

    were you in my room last night? I had a crazy dream...
    sloth 222 2012-03-22 14:43:39.0 login to vote score 1
    sabine: That gives me an idea. You know those icon-based keyboards they have for McDonalds counter staff, so they can place your order without having to be literate in English? There's gotta be a market for a law-enforcement version of those.

    Mmkay, I've got a super-sized homicide with a diet paranoia. Please pull around.
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 14:45:48.0 login to vote score 2
    baron muchhumpin: were you in my room last night? I had a crazy dream...

    next time, no kissing.
    surfnazi 932 2012-03-22 14:50:57.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: Mmkay, I've got a super-sized homicide with a diet paranoia. Please pull around.

    Sweet, they threw a free tazing in the bag.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-03-22 15:05:18.0 login to vote score 2
    surfnazi: Sweet, they threw a free tazing in the bag.

    They forgot the salt and pepper spray!
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-03-22 15:05:38.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: next time, no kissing.

    how about just no tongue?
    valaru 4404 2012-03-22 15:12:26.0 login to vote score 1
    baron muchhumpin: how about just no tongue?

    cost you extra
    iadtatami 682 2012-03-22 16:03:44.0 login to vote score 0
    valaru: he's hispanic.

    In the proud tradition of the conquistadors of old, like Ponce de Leon, Hernando Cortez, Hans-Deiter Zimmermann and Juan Vasquez de Coronado.
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