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  • In other news, there's a band out there with a soon to be chick singer...



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    kswheels 4583 2012-05-09 21:51:34.0 login to vote score 0
    That's nice. Who is he?
    renton42 1301 2012-05-09 22:01:19.0 login to vote score 0
    i actually just heard of this band this morning via a post by middle class rut on my fb feed. played a few of their songs on spotify and they're a really good band with solid songs. i've heard where this may be a hoax, but then again you never know.
    vliam 1096 2012-05-09 22:09:46.0 login to vote score 1
    Against Me kinda runs in a lot of the same circles as the bands that I really like. I'm pretty familiar with their music. However, I don't keep up with them that closely. That said...

    Didn't see this coming.

    Although, I listen to a lot of chick singers that are deeper and grittier than he is anyhow. Probably won't matter all that much.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-09 22:35:18.0 login to vote score 3
    list of transgengered musicians. Interesting list. Though, honestly, I only recognized Billy Tipton, Jayne Country, and Genesis P-Orridge there. Takes some guts on hir part and good for the wife and bandmates to be supportive.
    tass 609 2012-05-09 22:37:31.0 login to vote score 0
    What if his wife enjoys being married to a man...you know, like, with a dick and all that?
    vliam 1096 2012-05-09 22:53:45.0 login to vote score 1
    After looking at some more stuff, this probably isn't a shock to those close to him, like his wife.

    Professionally, they should have something coming out this year and they've got tour dates through August. Looks like a good show in Spain.

    Personally, I don't get it. But, if there's a solution to his issue, good on him/her... whatever.
    zombiestomper 7393 2012-05-10 05:33:00.0 login to vote score 1
    Going to see them and The Cult at the end of the month.

    I'm hoping he takes the stage in drag. That would kick ass.
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 06:46:14.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Genesis P-Orridge

    That's a very weird case though. I don't know if you can call him transgendered given his motivations. He's half of an attempt at, hell, I don't even know what to call it, identity fusion? The closest thing that comes to mind would probably be David and Angela Bowie circa Ziggy stardust. There's probably also something out of Orlans "carnal art manifesto" in there.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 07:03:20.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: That's a very weird case though. I don't know if you can call him transgendered given his motivations. He's half of an attempt at, hell, I don't even know what to call it, identity fusion? The closest thing that comes to mind would probably be David and Angela Bowie circa Ziggy stardust. There's probably also something out of Orlans "carnal art manifesto" in there.

    Hmmm. I think that, regardless of motivations, Genesis falls within the current confines of term 'transgendered'. I mean, that word is a reasonable pigeonhole to categorize certain people who fall outside the 'neat' classification of male/female identity. The term also allows for a transition in cultural thinking beyond binary sexual identification. I think this is especially important for the mass media as it allows 'them' to slowly introduce ideas like gender dysphoria into commonly accepted discourse. We are still in a period where people have a difficult time accepting same sex attraction and partnerships. Never mind the difficulty in accepting the concept that some folks do not feel adequate when identified as being either male or female and will go to lengths to modify their physical appearance to match their internal identity.
    Thanks for reminding me about Orlan. I had forgotten about the carnal manifesto. Just last week, I was reading about the Australian artist Stelarc and his techno-body modifications. Fascinating stuff. Thanks.


    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 07:30:03.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Hmmm. I think that, regardless of motivations, Genesis falls within the current confines of term 'transgendered'.

    I don't know. I'm not too update with what's going on on that front, but my understanding is that modern queer theory would actually consider the label "transgender" as being a normative construct, so it would only really apply to cases where there was gender dysmorphia. P-orridge wasn't an attempt to become a woman, it was something else entirely. But I'm not too sure, I havent really read anything on the subject in quite a while, so this is all really just baseless musings on my part.


    maggotbrain: Thanks for reminding me about Orlan. I had forgotten about the carnal manifesto. Just last week, I was reading about the Australian artist Stelarc and his techno-body modifications. Fascinating stuff. Thanks

    lol Stelarc is cool. but yeah, that whole post modern (post structural?) take on body is pretty interesting. Julia Kristevas work on abjection also ties into all that.



    pajamas 7950 2012-05-10 07:46:19.0 login to vote score 0
    tass: What if his wife enjoys being married to a man...you know, like, with a dick and all that?

    She seems to love hir, not just a penis. A large number of married transgendered people stay married after transitioning.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 07:55:25.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: I don't know. I'm not too update with what's going on on that front, but my understanding is that modern queer theory would actually consider the label "transgender" as being a normative construct, so it would only really apply to cases where there was gender dysmorphia. P-orridge wasn't an attempt to become a woman, it was something else entirely. But I'm not too sure, I havent really read anything on the subject in quite a while, so this is all really just baseless musings on my part.




    lol Stelarc is cool. but yeah, that whole post modern (post structural?) take on body is pretty interesting. Julia Kristevas work on abjection also ties into all that.


    I think that I see what you are saying in regards to P-Orridge, and I agree with you. I think that what Genesis may be doing happens to fall outside the boundaries of 'common' transgendered identification. However, due to the limited cultural understanding of media in regards to those actions, there is no better, more convenient term to place across his gender identity, or blurring thereof.
    My limited understanding of the post-structural navigation of identity and the body comes from Deleuze and Guattari’s concept of a Body without Organs. I see P-Orridge's body modification evolving along the lines of a challenging the subjectification of the body rather than other(common) transgendered transformation arising as a result of their desire to feel comfortable within their own skin. I've not read enough Kristeva to stick in my mind. Although, I do find it interesting that they both draw inspiration from Artaud's Theatre of Cruelty whom I admire a great deal(for different reasons).


    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 08:22:13.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: I've not read enough Kristeva to stick in my mind.

    we need to fix that stat :)

    here's Powers of Horror; An Essay on Abjection. (it's a garry glitter)

    That's her seminal work. She formulates the "abject" kind of as an antithesis of Lacans objet-petit-a. It's pretty good stuff.

    maggotbrain: I see P-Orridge's body modification evolving along the lines of a challenging the subjectification of the body rather than other(common) transgendered transformation arising as a result of their desire to feel comfortable within their own skin..

    I agree totally, and that's also why I'm not to happy with using the term "transgender" to define that. I think it detracts both from the true transgender based on gender dysmorphia and also from P-orridges attempt to create a identity disparate from our notions of gender. As I understand it, P-orridge was more an attempt towards androgyny, sort of like the Bowie's as I mentioned up thread.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 08:44:51.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: we need to fix that stat :)

    here's Powers of Horror; An Essay on Abjection. (it's a garry glitter)

    That's her seminal work. She formulates the "abject" kind of as an antithesis of Lacans objet-petit-a. It's pretty good stuff.



    I agree totally, and that's also why I'm not to happy with using the term "transgender" to define that. I think it detracts both from the true transgender based on gender dysmorphia and also from P-orridges attempt to create a identity disparate from our notions of gender. As I understand it, P-orridge was more an attempt towards androgyny, sort of like the Bowie's as I mentioned up thread.


    Well, if some people still have trouble understanding what the 'T' means in LGBT(I think that happened on bN just this week), I think we still have a ways to go 'understanding' what Genesis is on about, no? ;-)Until that time, I don't see having an breezy elevator conversation with anyone about it without falling back on the term transgendered. I'm not happy about that either.

    Christ! Can't believe I missed this. At first glance, her writing style, here, reminds me of a cross between Anti-Oedipus and some of Bataille's works. Much appreciated. I love the mixed prosody of this writing style. Though, I suppose it can be maddening for those looking for a more linear form of analysis. Thanks.
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 08:52:20.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Until that time, I don't see having an breezy elevator conversation with anyone about it without falling back on the term transgendered. I'm not happy about that either.

    "post-gendered"?

    maggotbrain: Christ! Can't believe I missed this. At first glance, her writing style, here, reminds me of a cross between Anti-Oedipus and some of Bataille's works. Much appreciated. I love the mixed prosody of this writing style. Though, I suppose it can be maddening for those looking for a more linear form of analysis. Thanks.

    enjoy! :)
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 09:04:20.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Until that time, I don't see having an breezy elevator conversation with anyone about it without falling back on the term transgendered. I'm not happy about that either.

    actually, just as a brain fart, looking at the etymology of the word "transgendered", it does fit. The prefix "trans" is from the Latin preposition "trāns" which would encapsulate "beyond" as well as "across: Although I think in the established common usage it has come to be used specifically in the sense of "across", as a transition between the two established genders. So I don't really know.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 09:15:25.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: actually, just as a brain fart, looking at the etymology of the word "transgendered", it does fit. The prefix "trans" is from the Latin preposition "trāns" which would encapsulate "beyond" as well as "across: Although I think in the established common usage it has come to be used specifically in the sense of "across", as a transition between the two established genders. So I don't really know.

    Hah. I almost started in on that issue with the prefix. I'm glad you saw that. I didn't want to rat-hole with you on coming up with a 'better' term. I'm sure there are more esoteric terms for more specific 'cases' just as there are some gender agnostic(?) pronouns seeing use in some sub-cultures.
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 09:28:10.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Hah. I almost started in on that issue with the prefix. I'm glad you saw that. I didn't want to rat-hole with you on coming up with a 'better' term. I'm sure there are more esoteric terms for more specific 'cases' just as there are some gender agnostic(?) pronouns seeing use in some sub-cultures.

    yeah, I think the problem is that the term is now inextricably connected to the DSM/ICD diagnosis of gender dysphoria. In that sense it obviously doesn't apply.
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 09:34:30.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: I'm sure there are more esoteric terms for more specific 'cases' just as there are some gender agnostic(?) pronouns seeing use in some sub-cultures.

    Come to think of it, what happens in languages where there is no gender neutrality, like Portuguese? I think that could also throw a spanner in the works. And no, we're not gonna try have this discussion in Portuguese :)

    However even in English, the pronoun "it" would be derogatory if used like that.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 10:00:54.0 login to vote score 1
    burntman: Come to think of it, what happens in languages where there is no gender neutrality, like Portuguese? I think that could also throw a spanner in the works. And no, we're not gonna try have this discussion in Portuguese :)

    However even in English, the pronoun "it" would be derogatory if used like that.


    Good question. I vaguely seem to recall some efforts being made in adopting the words 'ze', 'zhe' or 'hir' where the gender of the object is unknown(perhaps from Esperanto??). I'd have to look up the exact conjugations. When I was in San Francisco in the early 90's, I do remember seeing several prominent writers like Kate Bornstein and Kathy Acker, among others using these terms as a means of acknowledging non-binary gender identifications. I'm not sure how that has adoption rate has progressed in queer studies/communities, or amongst non-English speaking people. Personally, I tend to use 'hir' when referring to people of an indeterminate(to me) gender.

    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 10:14:52.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Personally, I tend to use 'hir' when referring to people of an indeterminate(to me) gender.

    Yeah, even 'hir' seems to be still far away from being common usage, but I imagine that's probably the best one at the moment. I have no idea how it translates into other languages though, especially the Romance languages with gender being so pervasive.
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 10:23:58.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: Yeah, even 'hir' seems to be still far away from being common usage, but I imagine that's probably the best one at the moment. I have no idea how it translates into other languages though, especially the Romance languages with gender being so pervasive.

    Agreed. As much as I am interested in language and issues of identity, I don't have any insight as to how the two converge in common use today. :-( As far as I can gather, I don't think the queer community has peacefully resolved the issue. It looks like it is still being intensely debated.

    Anyone? Bueller?
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 10:26:22.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 10:35:55.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: ?

    Heh. Sorry. Just a call out for anyone with better knowledge than me on either language or queer studies. It's an American movie reference. Ferris Bueller? No? Nevermind. :-)
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 10:37:33.0 login to vote score 0
    maggotbrain: Heh. Sorry. Just a call out for anyone with better knowledge than me on either language or queer studies. It's an American movie reference. Ferris Bueller? No? Nevermind. :-)

    no, I know the movie, I still don't get the reference though?
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 10:52:31.0 login to vote score 0
    burntman: no, I know the movie, I still don't get the reference though?

    I got nothing.

    Anyway, here's a term that I hadn't heard before: bigender. Where gender identity and sexual orientation are independent. It is possible to be bigender and not bisexual, or bisexual but not bigender. Apparently, they go by titles like Ser and Mx(??).
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 10:59:02.0 login to vote score 0
    maggotbrain: Anyway, here's a term that I hadn't heard before: bigender. Where gender identity and sexual orientation are independent. It is possible to be bigender and not bisexual, or bisexual but not bigender. Apparently, they go by titles like Ser and Mx(??).

    Yeah, I think "bigender" works. Makes sense to me.
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 11:00:32.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain:

    although I think "bi-gender" might be a better way of writing it, so that it doesn't get erroneously parsed as "big ender". :)
    kswheels 4583 2012-05-10 11:00:50.0 login to vote score 2
    maggotbrain: I got nothing.

    Anyway, here's a term that I hadn't heard before: bigender. Where gender identity and sexual orientation are independent. It is possible to be bigender and not bisexual, or bisexual but not bigender. Apparently, they go by titles like Ser and Mx(??).


    Big-ender

    kswheels 4583 2012-05-10 11:02:19.0 login to vote score 0
    maggotbrain: I got nothing.

    Anyway, here's a term that I hadn't heard before: bigender. Where gender identity and sexual orientation are independent. It is possible to be bigender and not bisexual, or bisexual but not bigender. Apparently, they go by titles like Ser and Mx(??).


    Big-Ender

    kswheels 4583 2012-05-10 11:02:39.0 login to vote score 0
    Well fuck the first one worked...
    maggotbrain 580 2012-05-10 11:03:02.0 login to vote score 2
    burntman: although I think "bi-gender" might be a better way of writing it, so that it doesn't get erroneously parsed as "big ender". :)

    Too late. :-)
    burntman 1528 2012-05-10 11:09:39.0 login to vote score 1
    maggotbrain: Too late. :-)

    prescience is an art :)
    If you logged in, you could post here.