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  • Those crazy libs at the WSJ say that austerity has made unemployment worse



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    Comments 101 through 155 of 155 shown. Page 1 2
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 12:50:24.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: That makes everything a "social" program if it isn't specifically taxed. Which is, of course, my program with the tax code.

    Just because they don't have your mortgage stamps every week doesn't mean it's functionally any different

    Bull. Shit.

    Food stamps are applied for when you are unable to feed yourself to keep you from starving temporarily. It is a positive action (providing food).

    The mortgage deduction is something perfectly capable adults do as part of budgetary planning when they make decisions lasting decades. It is a negative action (not taxing mortgage expenses).

    It is ridiculous to conflate them and reflects badly upon you.


    The british government don't add sales tax to basic food stuffs. Is that a social program?
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 12:50:39.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Sure. The vertical airspeed of our airliner plunging towards the earth has slowed from 600mph to 550mph.

    The ground is now 4000ft away.

    GOOD. THING.


    Do you have a little pony in you? ;)
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 12:51:19.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: Mutual debt write-downs across the world with some military skirmishes thrown in for good measure. That's my take.

    Which is deflationary. I expect that.

    This will then be followed by printing to take things back up, which will be the time to buy metals... not before.
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 12:52:43.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: That makes everything a "social" program if it isn't specifically taxed. Which is, of course, my program with the tax code.

    Just because they don't have your mortgage stamps every week doesn't mean it's functionally any different

    Bull. Shit.

    Food stamps are applied for when you are unable to feed yourself to keep you from starving temporarily. It is a positive action (providing food).

    The mortgage deduction is something perfectly capable adults do as part of budgetary planning when they make decisions lasting decades. It is a negative action (not taxing mortgage expenses).

    It is ridiculous to conflate them and reflects badly upon you.


    I see both as a net loss to the operating budget of the Federal Government, hopefully off-set by the benefits of the programs. Starving people eating vs. a hand-out to someone who took a gamble on real estate.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 12:53:22.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Sure. The vertical airspeed of our airliner plunging towards the earth has slowed from 600mph to 550mph.
    The ground is now 4000ft away.
    GOOD. THING.


    do you take a "glass nearly empty" approach to everything?

    You can't start at the end of the road, you have to get there

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 12:53:28.0 login to vote score 1
    fatsean: Do you have a little pony in you? ;)


    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 12:54:27.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: do you take a "glass nearly empty" approach to everything?

    You can't start at the end of the road, you have to get there


    You say the glass is half-full. Someone else might say it's half-empty.

    I say the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 12:54:57.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: You say the glass is half-full. Someone else might say it's half-empty.

    I say the glass is twice as large as it needs to be.


    i say the glass is at 50%

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 12:55:08.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: I see both as a net loss to the operating budget of the Federal Government, hopefully off-set by the benefits of the programs. Starving people eating vs. a hand-out to someone who took a gamble on real estate.

    So everyone who decides not to rent is "taking a gamble on real-estate".

    And you say czar bends facts...
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 12:55:10.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Which is deflationary. I expect that.

    This will then be followed by printing to take things back up, which will be the time to buy metals... not before.


    I take comfort in the fact that every single action taken to try to mitigate these swings have been too weak...wether it is not enoug stimulus spending or not sticking with austerity for long enough. I suspect any future actions will be just enough to prevent collapse, will piss off everyone who wants to see big changes, and life will just go on with moderate impact to those who save rather than spend.

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 12:55:38.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: The british government don't add sales tax to basic food stuffs. Is that a social program?

    No.
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 12:56:43.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: So everyone who decides not to rent is "taking a gamble on real-estate".

    And you say czar bends facts...


    Well isn't it a gamble? If you lose your job and you can't pay the remainder of the mortgage you don't get to keep the garage! It's all or nothing and you have to keep up the payments and maintenance for the duration of your mortgage.

    The banks think it is a gamble, else they wouldn't charge interest.
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:00:05.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: No.

    I see, but if they charged the usual 20% sales tax and then gave people 1/6th of their spending on food back as a basic living stamp - that would be?
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:00:52.0 login to vote score 1
    fatsean: Well isn't it a gamble? If you lose your job and you can't pay the remainder of the mortgage you don't get to keep the garage! It's all or nothing and you have to keep up the payments and maintenance for the duration of your mortgage.

    The banks think it is a gamble, else they wouldn't charge interest.




    Marge: I'm sure your insurance will cover the house.

    Maude: Uh, well, no. Neddy doesn't believe in insurance. He considers it a form of gambling.

    The common usage of gambling is play a game of chance with an expendable amount of money.

    Lesser usage is take on any risk, so you are technically correct, in the way of a Fundamentalist. Any long-term money management must take on risk, precisely because of the inflationary policies handed down by the Fed.
    sabine 745 2012-05-11 13:01:06.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: It's all or nothing

    Wait, what? Foreclosure doesn't mean you lose whatever equity you've built up in the house to date.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:01:21.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I see, but if they charged the usual 20% sales tax and then gave people 1/6th of their spending on food back as a basic living stamp - that would be?

    No.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:03:10.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I see, but if they charged the usual 20% sales tax and then gave people 1/6th of their spending on food back as a basic living stamp - that would be?

    the lottery system is a social program since they give money back to the communities

    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 13:03:58.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Marge: I'm sure your insurance will cover the house.

    Maude: Uh, well, no. Neddy doesn't believe in insurance. He considers it a form of gambling.

    The common usage of gambling is play a game of chance with an expendable amount of money.

    Lesser usage is take on any risk, so you are technically correct, in the way of a Fundamentalist. Any long-term money management must take on risk, precisely because of the inflationary policies handed down by the Fed.


    Playing the stock market is gambling as well to me. I don't have a negative connotation for the word, I just call it like I see it. You are trying to get more money with the risk of losing what you have wagered.


    sabine: Wait, what? Foreclosure doesn't mean you lose whatever equity you've built up in the house to date.

    True, if you've $50k equity on a $300k note you're only on the hook for $250k. But you either own the whole property or you don't. I guess that's what I was aiming for.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:04:14.0 login to vote score 0
    sabine: Wait, what? Foreclosure doesn't mean you lose whatever equity you've built up in the house to date.

    how so? if you stop paying the mortgage and the bank takes over, you don't get anything back

    you lose, you get nothing.. good day sir!

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:05:27.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: But you either own the whole property or you don't. I guess that's what I was aiming for.

    By the time I pay off my mortgage, my property taxes will have increased to what my mortgage payment is.

    So at that point, I guess the state will own my house.

    COMMUNISM!!!!
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:06:02.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: By the time I pay off my mortgage, my property taxes will have increased to what my mortgage payment is.


    yearly or quarterly?
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:08:30.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: yearly or quarterly?

    Monthly.
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:09:27.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: how so? if you stop paying the mortgage and the bank takes over, you don't get anything back

    you lose, you get nothing.. good day sir!


    I'm pretty sure you get to keep anything left over. Although the bank will offload your house at whatever price they choose, then take out their fees, the remaining principal and you'll get whatever's left
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 13:10:05.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: By the time I pay off my mortgage, my property taxes will have increased to what my mortgage payment is.

    So at that point, I guess the state will own my house.

    COMMUNISM!!!!


    For me that would take...a quadrupling of my property tax rate. We have quite high property taxes here, but I don't think they're quadruple before I'm dead in the ground.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:11:25.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Monthly.

    dear god... my monthly property tax is $341.. my mortgage is $2100

    if that happened to me there'd be a nice fire going here

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:12:07.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: For me that would take...a quadrupling of my property tax rate. We have quite high property taxes here, but I don't think they're quadruple before I'm dead in the ground.

    For me it's a tripling, and it rises at three percent a year. 1.03^30 = 2.42. So yeah, it's a little over that, more like 35 years.

    But thankfully we have the social program of deductible property taxes!!!
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:12:41.0 login to vote score 1
    so vote republican: But thankfully we have the social program of deductible property taxes!!!

    Glad you've come around :)
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:13:00.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I'm pretty sure you get to keep anything left over. Although the bank will offload your house at whatever price they choose, then take out their fees, the remaining principal and you'll get whatever's left

    well that's kinda it, equity is perceived value, the bank doesn't give a shit about you and your equity, they just know you owe X and that's what they want back

    if you could sell the house yourself and preserve your equity i'm sure you would have

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:13:52.0 login to vote score 0
    fatsean: For me that would take...a quadrupling of my property tax rate. We have quite high property taxes here, but I don't think they're quadruple before I'm dead in the ground.

    Do the math. Depending on how old you are/long you live, I bet you'll see it...
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:13:57.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: For me it's a tripling, and it rises at three percent a year. 1.03^30 = 2.42. So yeah, it's a little over that, more like 35 years.

    But thankfully we have the social program of deductible property taxes!!!


    i'll be done paying mine off in 13 years.... before i'm 55! :)

    woohoo!!

    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:13:58.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: well that's kinda it, equity is perceived value, the bank doesn't give a shit about you and your equity, they just know you owe X and that's what they want back

    if you could sell the house yourself and preserve your equity i'm sure you would have


    True, but if there was a fluke uptick in the market then it's not out of the question for the bank to sell it at a profit. Highly unlikely, but not impossible
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:15:27.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: well that's kinda it, equity is perceived value, the bank doesn't give a shit about you and your equity, they just know you owe X and that's what they want back

    if you could sell the house yourself and preserve your equity i'm sure you would have


    Banks are required to sell the house and return your equity as well.
    little hands of concrete 1804 2012-05-11 13:18:16.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: Glad you've come around :)

    Of course the mortgage interest deduction is social welfare.


    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 13:18:41.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: For me it's a tripling, and it rises at three percent a year. 1.03^30 = 2.42. So yeah, it's a little over that, more like 35 years.

    But thankfully we have the social program of deductible property taxes!!!


    Exactly, and because we need homeowners to stabilize communities and to provide housing to renters, we'll have to keep the social program of backing borrowers who aren't quite good enough for private banks.
    fatsean 3838 2012-05-11 13:19:30.0 login to vote score 1
    so vote republican: Do the math. Depending on how old you are/long you live, I bet you'll see it...

    Unless we have rampant deflation of course!
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 13:20:47.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Banks are required to sell the house and return your equity as well.

    seeing lots of articles around this, results are mostly you don't get shit back

    all say try to sell it yourself before it goes to auction where the bank will most likely be the only bidder and bid the amount owed

    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:22:24.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Banks are required to sell the house and return your equity as well.

    In most cases it's not the equity they're required to return, but any proceeds above the outstanding loan.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:22:27.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: seeing lots of articles around this, results are mostly you don't get shit back

    all say try to sell it yourself before it goes to auction where the bank will most likely be the only bidder and bid the amount owed


    Absolutely. But that's only because it's the current state of affairs where there are so few buyers.

    But don't worry, the Federal government posted a surplus for the tax month, so I'm sure we're all good.
    sabine 745 2012-05-11 13:22:36.0 login to vote score 0
    baron muchhumpin: you lose, you get nothing

    Depends on how much the house sells for. If it's more than the balance on your loan, you get the difference. The equity you've built up by paying so far still counts.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:23:32.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: Glad you've come around :)

    little hands of concrete: Of course the mortgage interest deduction is social welfare.

    The problem is that then anything that isn't taxed becomes a social program.

    This is a ridiculous state of affairs which assumes the state owns you unless they benevolently decide otherwise in a specific case.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:24:05.0 login to vote score 1
    sloth: In most cases it's not the equity they're required to return, but any proceeds above the outstanding loan.

    That would, err, be the equity (minus any selling fees of course).
    sabine 745 2012-05-11 13:24:31.0 login to vote score 1
    baron muchhumpin: equity is perceived value

    I guess that's one way of looking at it, but the bean counter in me thinks of it as the decrease in the principal on the loan. The interest you lose, but the non-interest part of your mortgage payments constitute accrued equity.
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:27:42.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: The problem is that then anything that isn't taxed becomes a social program.

    If they make a specific exemption for something, particularly if it's to promote a particular social goal (like increasing home ownership) then I'd say that exemption becomes a social program.

    Would you say that EITC or MWP were social programs?
    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:27:56.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: That would, err, be the equity (minus any selling fees of course).

    Well...assuming the house sells for close to actual value, and minus some various costs...yeah, it is. Damn you.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:42:27.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: If they make a specific exemption for something, particularly if it's to promote a particular social goal (like increasing home ownership) then I'd say that exemption becomes a social program.

    Would you say that EITC or MWP were social programs?


    Then the entire tax code is a social program.

    I'm not buying it, sorry.
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:49:14.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Then the entire tax code is a social program.

    I'm not buying it, sorry.


    I'm pretty sure that's true. We could fit our tax code on a couple of sheets of paper if we took out anything that was added to incent a certain behavior.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:51:07.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I'm pretty sure that's true. We could fit our tax code on a couple of sheets of paper if we took out anything that was added to incent a certain behavior.

    Then the definition of "social program" becomes so broad as to be meaningless.
    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:52:51.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Then the definition of "social program" becomes so broad as to be meaningless.

    That's because it's dystopian.
    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 13:54:03.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: That's because it's dystopian.

    And any use of force by the government is repression.
    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:55:10.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: And any use of force by the government is repression.

    And this:

    is porn.
    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:55:28.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: And any use of force by the government is repression.

    And this:

    is porn
    grahams 5 2012-05-11 13:56:09.0 login to vote score 0
    so vote republican: Then the definition of "social program" becomes so broad as to be meaningless.

    I know I got into an argument with one of the conny cons here who wanted to claim that Making Work Pay was social welfare when it suited him but that it was a tax cut when it suited other arguments.

    It's certainly debatable what category stuff like that fall into, but if we were to replace food stamps with an Making Poor People Not Starve tax credit we could reduce a lot of our welfare spending.






    sloth 222 2012-05-11 13:58:26.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I know I got into an argument with one of the conny cons here who wanted to claim that Making Work Pay was social welfare when it suited him but that it was a tax cut when it suited other arguments.

    Flash, iirc.
    baron muchhumpin 4248 2012-05-11 14:00:14.0 login to vote score 0
    grahams: I'm pretty sure that's true. We could fit our tax code on a couple of sheets of paper if we took out anything that was added to incent a certain behavior.

    we've also split hairs on whether military spending is considered "mandatory"

    so vote republican 6688 2012-05-11 14:03:46.0 login to vote score 0
    sloth: And this:

    is porn


    I'm fappin' it.
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