PLACE YOUR BETS HERE! Exit Polls: Wisconsin Deadlocked
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When there's a tie, the status quo always wins.
The only difference it'll make here is whether gahbrone will be gloating or bawwwing in a few hours.
czarangelus: When there's a tie, the status quo always wins.
Don't blame me, I voted for the Indian dude who was also on the ballot.
Don't blame me, I voted for the Indian dude who was also on the ballot.
osirisothedead: The only difference it'll make here is whether gahbrone will be gloating or bawwwing in a few hours.
There's a difference?
There's a difference?
paranoyd: There's a difference?
Well, other than the whole "probably going to jail" thing Walker's got going on...
Well, other than the whole "probably going to jail" thing Walker's got going on...
"And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
finnley wren: "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
Rhetoric.
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
Rhetoric.
osirisothedead: The only difference it'll make here is whether gahbrone will be gloating or bawwwing in a few hours.
You forgot phildo.
You forgot phildo.
mike.refreshment: Well, other than the whole "probably going to jail" thing Walker's got going on...
Now this is news. For what?
Now this is news. For what?
finnley wren: Apparently, just that.
Well, yeah, but did you honestly think the President could walk a picket line?
Well, yeah, but did you honestly think the President could walk a picket line?
paranoyd: Well, yeah, but did you honestly think the President could walk a picket line?
Nothing stopping him that I'm aware of.
Nothing stopping him that I'm aware of.
finnley wren: Really.
So, you don't think that the President on a picket line, with hordes of Secret Service surrounding him, checking the buildings, keeping him safe, the fleet of cars needed to get him and his entourage there and back and the fact that he has a lot of other shit to do - and the Republicans would flood the air with the waste of money and resources it would be - would in any way overshadow the whole point of the picket line or completely fuck the whole thing up?
So, you don't think that the President on a picket line, with hordes of Secret Service surrounding him, checking the buildings, keeping him safe, the fleet of cars needed to get him and his entourage there and back and the fact that he has a lot of other shit to do - and the Republicans would flood the air with the waste of money and resources it would be - would in any way overshadow the whole point of the picket line or completely fuck the whole thing up?
paranoyd: So, you don't think that the President on a picket line, with hordes of Secret Service surrounding him, checking the buildings, keeping him safe, the fleet of cars needed to get him and his entourage there and back and the fact that he has a lot of other shit to do - and the Republicans would flood the air with the waste of money and resources it would be - would in any way overshadow the whole point of the picket line or completely fuck the whole thing up?
". . . workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
". . . workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
finnley wren: ". . . workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
That's not an answer.
Do you think he could be "standing in their corner" by, perhaps, making statements against Walker or supporting the recall? (I have no idea if he is, but that's more appropriate to the President than walking a picket line.)
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
That's not an answer.
Do you think he could be "standing in their corner" by, perhaps, making statements against Walker or supporting the recall? (I have no idea if he is, but that's more appropriate to the President than walking a picket line.)
paranoyd: That's not an answer.
Do you think he could be "standing in their corner" by, perhaps, making statements against Walker or supporting the recall? (I have no idea if he is, but that's more appropriate to the President than walking a picket line.)
There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
Do you think he could be "standing in their corner" by, perhaps, making statements against Walker or supporting the recall? (I have no idea if he is, but that's more appropriate to the President than walking a picket line.)
There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
mike.refreshment: Don't blame me, I voted for the Indian dude who was also on the ballot.
Then you voted for Scott because the Indian dude is a Democrat plant by the republicans.
Then you voted for Scott because the Indian dude is a Democrat plant by the republicans.
paranoyd: Seems like he was.
Actually, seems like he wasn't. All of the assaults on labor were successful, and it appears tonight, the architect of those assaults will be rewarded for his efforts. Some even say, it will vault him into the national limelight.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
Actually, seems like he wasn't. All of the assaults on labor were successful, and it appears tonight, the architect of those assaults will be rewarded for his efforts. Some even say, it will vault him into the national limelight.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
He promised he would physically hop on Air Force One and be there?
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
He promised he would physically hop on Air Force One and be there?
swingingjohnson: He promised he would physically hop on Air Force One and be there?
finnley wren: "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
finnley wren: "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
he never signed the pledge
finnley wren: Actually, seems like he wasn't. All of the assaults on labor were successful, and it appears tonight, the architect of those assaults will be rewarded for his efforts. Some even say, it will vault him into the national limelight.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
It seems inappropriate for a president to get immersed in a state issue like this.
Did Bush fly to California when Arnold was campaigning in the Cali recall election that he won?
People who vote for a GOP governor is Wisconsin are also people that vote for a Dem president.
NJ is the same way.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
It seems inappropriate for a president to get immersed in a state issue like this.
Did Bush fly to California when Arnold was campaigning in the Cali recall election that he won?
People who vote for a GOP governor is Wisconsin are also people that vote for a Dem president.
NJ is the same way.
finnley wren: Actually, seems like he wasn't. All of the assaults on labor were successful, and it appears tonight, the architect of those assaults will be rewarded for his efforts. Some even say, it will vault him into the national limelight.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
paranoyd: He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
You posted an article from over a year ago. A simple google search will find you many stories from Wisconsin where the Unions and Democrats in Wisconsin feel betrayed by Obama and the DNC.
You posted an article from over a year ago. A simple google search will find you many stories from Wisconsin where the Unions and Democrats in Wisconsin feel betrayed by Obama and the DNC.
tunk87: You posted an article from over a year ago. A simple google search will find you many stories from Wisconsin where the Unions and Democrats in Wisconsin feel betrayed by Obama and the DNC.
Post them.
Post them.
swingingjohnson: It seems inappropriate for a president to get immersed in a state issue like this.
The American Labor Movement is not a state issue. And just because something has never been done before, does not make it inappropriate.
Nobody ever doubted Obama's embrace of the labor movement. They have been his biggest supporter. They have visited him more often in the White House than any other group. And if he, as president, as promised, walked on a picket line, it would have been historic. Not inappropriate.
And the American worker would truly know that "somebody was standing in their corner."
The American Labor Movement is not a state issue. And just because something has never been done before, does not make it inappropriate.
Nobody ever doubted Obama's embrace of the labor movement. They have been his biggest supporter. They have visited him more often in the White House than any other group. And if he, as president, as promised, walked on a picket line, it would have been historic. Not inappropriate.
And the American worker would truly know that "somebody was standing in their corner."
finnley wren: Actually, seems like he wasn't. All of the assaults on labor were successful, and it appears tonight, the architect of those assaults will be rewarded for his efforts. Some even say, it will vault him into the national limelight.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
paranoyd: He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
Yeah, I think we can let him slide on that by calling it a metaphoric statement.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
No way Obama comes out of this looking good, no matter what his apologists say.
paranoyd: He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
Yeah, I think we can let him slide on that by calling it a metaphoric statement.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
paranoyd: He can't hold the voter's hands. All he can do is throw his support behind the movement and he did that. It's ridiculous to think he would be able, as the President of the United States, to walk an actual picket line in Wisconsin.
You can say it was merely lofty rhetoric and he didn't mean it, and anyone who believed it was a sucker. Or you can say that it was a broken promise.
Please choose one and we can move on.
You can say it was merely lofty rhetoric and he didn't mean it, and anyone who believed it was a sucker. Or you can say that it was a broken promise.
Please choose one and we can move on.
swingingjohnson: Yeah, I think we can let him slide on that by calling it a metaphoric statement.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
So you're saying he didn't really mean it. I thought he did, but that's just me.
Your turn, paranoyd.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
So you're saying he didn't really mean it. I thought he did, but that's just me.
Your turn, paranoyd.
finnley wren: The American Labor Movement is not a state issue. And just because something has never been done before, does not make it inappropriate.
Nobody ever doubted Obama's embrace of the labor movement. They have been his biggest supporter. They have visited him more often in the White House than any other group. And if he, as president, as promised, walked on a picket line, it would have been historic. Not inappropriate.
And the American worker would truly know that "somebody was standing in their corner."
So far it is limited to state employee Unions of Wisconsin.
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
Nobody ever doubted Obama's embrace of the labor movement. They have been his biggest supporter. They have visited him more often in the White House than any other group. And if he, as president, as promised, walked on a picket line, it would have been historic. Not inappropriate.
And the American worker would truly know that "somebody was standing in their corner."
So far it is limited to state employee Unions of Wisconsin.
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
paranoyd: Post them.
What? How about you post a relevant article to back up your blind defense of Obama instead of one from 16 months ago.
For fucks sake, look at Yahoo news over the past couple of weeks. The local Democrats and Unions in Wisconsin are pissed.
What? How about you post a relevant article to back up your blind defense of Obama instead of one from 16 months ago.
For fucks sake, look at Yahoo news over the past couple of weeks. The local Democrats and Unions in Wisconsin are pissed.
finnley wren: You can say it was merely lofty rhetoric and he didn't mean it, and anyone who believed it was a sucker. Or you can say that it was a broken promise.
Please choose one and we can move on.
I believe I answered that already when I stated: paranoyd: Rhetoric. , but I do think he meant it, and that's bourne out by the fact that he paranoyd: "... waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too."
So, no, I don't think it was any sort of promise the way you are saying. It would have been all about Obama and not about the picket line if he actually showed up, kind of the way the Terry Schaivo thing became all about the politicians who showed up and she was largely forgotten. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to think he would actually be able to show up for a picket line.
Please choose one and we can move on.
I believe I answered that already when I stated: paranoyd: Rhetoric. , but I do think he meant it, and that's bourne out by the fact that he paranoyd: "... waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too."
So, no, I don't think it was any sort of promise the way you are saying. It would have been all about Obama and not about the picket line if he actually showed up, kind of the way the Terry Schaivo thing became all about the politicians who showed up and she was largely forgotten. I think it's absolutely ridiculous to think he would actually be able to show up for a picket line.
swingingjohnson: So far it is limited to state employee Unions of Wisconsin.
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
Exactly how is pissing off 12% of workers who the vast majority would never vote for the in the first place going to backfire?
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
Exactly how is pissing off 12% of workers who the vast majority would never vote for the in the first place going to backfire?
swingingjohnson: So far it is limited to state employee Unions of Wisconsin.
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
Don't think so. Success builds its own momentum, and it appears tonight, the anti-labor force will be successful.
Americans like being on the side of winners. Tonight, it appears that Republicans will be the winners.
Obama's chances grow weaker by the minute.
The anti worker stance of the GOP could backfire badly on the GOP.
Don't think so. Success builds its own momentum, and it appears tonight, the anti-labor force will be successful.
Americans like being on the side of winners. Tonight, it appears that Republicans will be the winners.
Obama's chances grow weaker by the minute.
tunk87: What? How about you post a relevant article to back up your blind defense of Obama instead of one from 16 months ago.
For fucks sake, look at Yahoo news over the past couple of weeks. The local Democrats and Unions in Wisconsin are pissed.
So you have no articles then? I mean, if they are that easy to find, you shouldn't have a problem backing up your statement.
For fucks sake, look at Yahoo news over the past couple of weeks. The local Democrats and Unions in Wisconsin are pissed.
So you have no articles then? I mean, if they are that easy to find, you shouldn't have a problem backing up your statement.
finnley wren: So you're saying he didn't really mean it. I thought he did, but that's just me.
Your turn, paranoyd.
Metaphor.
Your turn, paranoyd.
Metaphor.
paranoyd: So, no, I don't think it was any sort of promise the way you are saying.
Fair enough.
I thought it was.
Fair enough.
I thought it was.
swingingjohnson: Yeah, I think we can let him slide on that by calling it a metaphoric statement.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
Hoover didn't actually say that. The RNC did.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
Hoover didn't actually say that. The RNC did.
finnley wren: So you're saying he didn't really mean it. I thought he did, but that's just me.
Your turn, paranoyd.
He didn't say it at all.
Your turn, paranoyd.
He didn't say it at all.
Bobby Kennedy would have marched with them, as he did with the migrant workers.
/for what it's worth.
/for what it's worth.
tunk87: Exactly how is pissing off 12% of workers who the vast majority would never vote for the in the first place going to backfire?
Because it's a GOP experiment. Next they will try for the police unions, then the private sector.
That give the Dems a strong talking point against the GOP.
Because it's a GOP experiment. Next they will try for the police unions, then the private sector.
That give the Dems a strong talking point against the GOP.
And for the record, I grew up in a union household (Dad was in the UAW for 43yrs) and I know one thing to be 100% true: If you think the union cares about the "rank and file" beyond their monthly dues, you are sorely mistaken.
harrisonfire: He didn't say it at all.
Who didn't say what? SJ didn't say that Obama didn't really mean it?
Cause I think he did.
Who didn't say what? SJ didn't say that Obama didn't really mean it?
Cause I think he did.
swingingjohnson: Yeah, I think we can let him slide on that by calling it a metaphoric statement.
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
A foot in every comfortable shoe!
When Herbert Hoover promised "A chicken in every pot!" I don't think he meant he would personally deliver the chickens.
A foot in every comfortable shoe!
swingingjohnson: Because it's a GOP experiment. Next they will try for the police unions, then the private sector.
That give the Dems a strong talking point against the GOP.
Approximately 12% of workers in the US are unionized and that number has been falling for years. Their power and relevance are grossly overestimated.
That give the Dems a strong talking point against the GOP.
Approximately 12% of workers in the US are unionized and that number has been falling for years. Their power and relevance are grossly overestimated.
finnley wren: Bobby Kennedy would have marched with them, as he did with the migrant workers.
/for what it's worth.
Bobby Kennedy was not the President. Also, he was assassinated, so I'm not sure he's a good example of why the President should go out in public and walk a picket line which would be fairly unsafe.
/for what it's worth.
Bobby Kennedy was not the President. Also, he was assassinated, so I'm not sure he's a good example of why the President should go out in public and walk a picket line which would be fairly unsafe.
finnley wren: Who didn't say what? SJ didn't say that Obama didn't really mean it?
Cause I think he did.
I was just pointing out that Hoover never said the "Chicken in every pot" thing.
If I got confused as to who was saying what, apologies.
Cause I think he did.
I was just pointing out that Hoover never said the "Chicken in every pot" thing.
If I got confused as to who was saying what, apologies.
tunk87: Approximately 12% of workers in the US are unionized and that number has been falling for years. Their power and relevance are grossly overestimated.
Doesn't mean they're still not important, or that the right to organize and collectively bargain still isn't important.
These were hard fought for rights. People actually died to obtain them. Don't think we should give them up that easily.
Doesn't mean they're still not important, or that the right to organize and collectively bargain still isn't important.
These were hard fought for rights. People actually died to obtain them. Don't think we should give them up that easily.
tunk87: And for the record, I grew up in a union household (Dad was in the UAW for 43yrs) and I know one thing to be 100% true: If you think the union cares about the "rank and file" beyond their monthly dues, you are sorely mistaken.
So no union cares about its workers? Or just the UAW that your dad was a member of?
So no union cares about its workers? Or just the UAW that your dad was a member of?
paranoyd: So you have no articles then? I mean, if they are that easy to find, you shouldn't have a problem backing up your statement.
So you can't find an article more recent than 16 months ago to back up your statement. That is what I responded to and you keep trying to reverse the roles. Find something a little more recent, say from maybe this year.
So you can't find an article more recent than 16 months ago to back up your statement. That is what I responded to and you keep trying to reverse the roles. Find something a little more recent, say from maybe this year.
paranoyd: Bobby Kennedy was not the President. Also, he was assassinated, so I'm not sure he's a good example of why the President should go out in public and walk a picket line which would be fairly unsafe.
Yeah, the president should be in a bubble. A high-tech bubble where he can direct drone attacks when he's not waving at the crowd.
Yeah, the president should be in a bubble. A high-tech bubble where he can direct drone attacks when he's not waving at the crowd.
tunk87: So you can't find an article more recent than 16 months ago to back up your statement. That is what I responded to and you keep trying to reverse the roles. Find something a little more recent, say from maybe this year.
I don't have to - you made the assertion that they don't like Obama, you back it up. Commenting 101.
I don't have to - you made the assertion that they don't like Obama, you back it up. Commenting 101.
finnley wren: Yeah, the president should be in a bubble. A high-tech bubble where he can direct drone attacks when he's not waving at the crowd.
He should be a little more protected than walking a picket line, yes.
He should be a little more protected than walking a picket line, yes.
tunk87: Approximately 12% of workers in the US are unionized and that number has been falling for years. Their power and relevance are grossly overestimated.
Other than the richy rich people (who generally donate to the GOP), the biggest source of money in elections comes from unions (who generally donate to Democrats). Want to destroy your enemy? Cut off their supply lines.
Other than the richy rich people (who generally donate to the GOP), the biggest source of money in elections comes from unions (who generally donate to Democrats). Want to destroy your enemy? Cut off their supply lines.
paranoyd: So no union cares about its workers? Or just the UAW that your dad was a member of?
Most don't. Period. You forget I have lived my entire life in Michigan which is a historically strong union state. As a member of a union you should plan on the union to be just as quick to through you under the bus and any evil business owner, sometimes quicker. I've seen it, personally, with many unions.
Most don't. Period. You forget I have lived my entire life in Michigan which is a historically strong union state. As a member of a union you should plan on the union to be just as quick to through you under the bus and any evil business owner, sometimes quicker. I've seen it, personally, with many unions.
paranoyd: He should be a little more protected than walking a picket line, yes.
Can't imagine him being much more protected than walking a picket line at the Wisconsin State House, setting aside that he went into the office knowing of the dangers.
But whatever you need to say to excuse his behavior.
Can't imagine him being much more protected than walking a picket line at the Wisconsin State House, setting aside that he went into the office knowing of the dangers.
But whatever you need to say to excuse his behavior.
finnley wren: Yeah, the president should be in a bubble. A high-tech bubble where he can direct drone attacks when he's not waving at the crowd.
He needs to be in a bunker in Orlando surrounded by barbed wire and machine guns that shoot anything that moves!
He needs to be in a bunker in Orlando surrounded by barbed wire and machine guns that shoot anything that moves!
tunk87: Most don't. Period. You forget I have lived my entire life in Michigan which is a historically strong union state. As a member of a union you should plan on the union to be just as quick to through you under the bus and any evil business owner, sometimes quicker. I've seen it, personally, with many unions.
Well, I didn't forget, because I didn't know, but there's good unions and bad unions, just like there are good CEOs and bad CEOs. I don't think one should classify them all as evil.
Well, I didn't forget, because I didn't know, but there's good unions and bad unions, just like there are good CEOs and bad CEOs. I don't think one should classify them all as evil.
finnley wren: Can't imagine him being much more protected than walking a picket line at the Wisconsin State House, setting aside that he went into the office knowing of the dangers.
But whatever you need to say to excuse his behavior.
I don't have to say anything. It's a child's reasoning that says he should walk a picket line when he's the President of the United States.
But whatever you need to say to excuse his behavior.
I don't have to say anything. It's a child's reasoning that says he should walk a picket line when he's the President of the United States.
paranoyd: I don't have to say anything. It's a child's reasoning that says he should walk a picket line when he's the President of the United States.
Walking a picket line is about the most American thing you can do. Some have forgotten that.
Like Obama.
Walking a picket line is about the most American thing you can do. Some have forgotten that.
Like Obama.
Unions are the natural counter-balance to management. That both tend to be corrupt is due to their constituents being human beings as opposed to their over-arching goals.
finnley wren: Walking a picket line is about the most American thing you can do. Some have forgotten that.
Like Obama.
Except I proved he hasn't. So, I guess your move?
Like Obama.
Except I proved he hasn't. So, I guess your move?
tunk87: Most don't. Period. You forget I have lived my entire life in Michigan which is a historically strong union state. As a member of a union you should plan on the union to be just as quick to through you under the bus and any evil business owner, sometimes quicker. I've seen it, personally, with many unions.
There is a reason Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, and VW don't build facilities in Northern States. They are not right to work states for the most part. Also, the "Work Ethic" of a trained UAW auto worker does not fit the company culture. These companies value a short list. Employee loyalty (works both ways for them), They are the yakuza of manufacturing. Once in your never out. Chain of command, A Union rep wouldnt last five minutes in some of these places. Sure, you have Japanese parts manufacturers in the north, But to them it's gravy, the profit margin if they make pennies on a prt here translates into huge currency exchange profit on the books.
There is a reason Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, Subaru, and VW don't build facilities in Northern States. They are not right to work states for the most part. Also, the "Work Ethic" of a trained UAW auto worker does not fit the company culture. These companies value a short list. Employee loyalty (works both ways for them), They are the yakuza of manufacturing. Once in your never out. Chain of command, A Union rep wouldnt last five minutes in some of these places. Sure, you have Japanese parts manufacturers in the north, But to them it's gravy, the profit margin if they make pennies on a prt here translates into huge currency exchange profit on the books.
paranoyd: I don't have to - you made the assertion that they don't like Obama, you back it up. Commenting 101.
How shit. I responded to your claim that Obama was supporting the Wisconsin Dems that you tried to back up with an article from 16 months ago. The exactly post is below because, obviously, you've forgotten it.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
You made a bold claim and tried to back it up with an old article. When someone makes a claim, the impetus is on them to back it up with something remotely relevant.
How shit. I responded to your claim that Obama was supporting the Wisconsin Dems that you tried to back up with an article from 16 months ago. The exactly post is below because, obviously, you've forgotten it.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
You made a bold claim and tried to back it up with an old article. When someone makes a claim, the impetus is on them to back it up with something remotely relevant.
paranoyd: Except I proved he hasn't. So, I guess your move?
finnley wren: "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
finnley wren: "And understand this: If American workers are being denied their right to organize and collectively bargain when I’m in the White House, I will put on a comfortable pair of shoes myself, I’ll walk on that picket line with you as President of the United States of America. Because workers deserve to know that somebody is standing in their corner."
- B. Hussein Obama, 11/3/07
paranoyd: Except I proved he hasn't. So, I guess your move?
No, you haven't. You'd get laughed out of a high school debate class with your "proof".
No, you haven't. You'd get laughed out of a high school debate class with your "proof".
kang: Unions are the natural counter-balance to management. That both tend to be corrupt is due to their constituents being human beings as opposed to their over-arching goals.
That's why I'm a big supporter of the concept of unions, but get concerned when government starts handing them too many inherent advantages (like corporations).
Unions can be just as monopolistic...
That's why I'm a big supporter of the concept of unions, but get concerned when government starts handing them too many inherent advantages (like corporations).
Unions can be just as monopolistic...
finnley wren: Walking a picket line is about the most American thing you can do. Some have forgotten that.
Like Obama.
Not anymore. It's all about crossing picket lines these days.
Like Obama.
Not anymore. It's all about crossing picket lines these days.
osirisothedead: Not anymore. It's all about crossing picket lines these days.
After tonight, I suspect you're right. Could well be the death of the American Labor Movement.
But it seems some folks are cool with that.
After tonight, I suspect you're right. Could well be the death of the American Labor Movement.
But it seems some folks are cool with that.
tunk87: No, you haven't. You'd get laughed out of a high school debate class with your "proof".
As would you with your lack of same.
As would you with your lack of same.
paranoyd: Well, I didn't forget, because I didn't know, but there's good unions and bad unions, just like there are good CEOs and bad CEOs. I don't think one should classify them all as evil.
I didn't say evil. I said if you think the union cares one iota more about you than the company you work for, you're crazy.
I didn't say evil. I said if you think the union cares one iota more about you than the company you work for, you're crazy.
thanks slavebama
tunk87: How shit. I responded to your claim that Obama was supporting the Wisconsin Dems that you tried to back up with an article from 16 months ago. The exactly post is below because, obviously, you've forgotten it.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
You made a bold claim and tried to back it up with an old article. When someone makes a claim, the impetus is on them to back it up with something remotely relevant.
It was relevant. It directly addresses the idea that Obama supports the picket lines.
finnley wren: There has been no clearer instance in this country of workers being denied their right to organize than what happened in Wisconsin. Way I remember it, protesters occupied the state house for months, Democrats in the legislature had to escape to Illinois for fear of being used as pawns, etc. etc. It was a pretty historic moment for the labor movement, and will be in the history books.
And the president who promised he'd be there, wasn't. That's all.
"The president waded into the fight between Walker and unions when he told a Milwaukee television station that any effort to make it harder for public employees to engage in collective bargaining "seems like more of an assault on unions."
Obama's political arm at the Democratic National Committee, Organizing for America, helped mobilize demonstrators in coordination with unions. Democratic Party officials also are watching government-labor disputes in Ohio and Indiana to see if the party should step in there, too.
Such visible support for public sector workers signals an effort by Obama's organization to smooth a sometimes rocky relationship with some in the labor movement. Unions have sought reassurance from the White House that Obama is not pulling away from them as he ratchets up his overtures to business.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/19/obama-offers-tactical-support-unions-state-budget-battles/#ixzz1wyCnJf5D"
Seems like he was.
You made a bold claim and tried to back it up with an old article. When someone makes a claim, the impetus is on them to back it up with something remotely relevant.
It was relevant. It directly addresses the idea that Obama supports the picket lines.
finnley wren: After tonight, I suspect you're right. Could well be the death of the American Labor Movement.
But it seems some folks are cool with that.
Some like who? Phildo? Gahbrone? Whom?
But it seems some folks are cool with that.
Some like who? Phildo? Gahbrone? Whom?
so vote republican: That's why I'm a big supporter of the concept of unions, but get concerned when government starts handing them too many inherent advantages (like corporations).
Unions can be just as monopolistic...
Yeah, even without govt interference, unions can sometimes bring companies that would otherwise succeed, down.
Still, you gotta have unions. Maybe even moreso now than back in the day. We're approaching a point of diminishing labor needs and that bodes pretty badly for workers and TBH the economy as a whole.
We're going to have to figure something out and the answer is definitely not getting rid of unions...
Unions can be just as monopolistic...
Yeah, even without govt interference, unions can sometimes bring companies that would otherwise succeed, down.
Still, you gotta have unions. Maybe even moreso now than back in the day. We're approaching a point of diminishing labor needs and that bodes pretty badly for workers and TBH the economy as a whole.
We're going to have to figure something out and the answer is definitely not getting rid of unions...
paranoyd: As would you with your lack of same.
All I have been asking is for you to back up your original statement. Period. A 16 month article does not do that. At all.
All I have been asking is for you to back up your original statement. Period. A 16 month article does not do that. At all.
someone who may or may not be participating in this thread
2012-06-05 18:35:26.0
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This is the strangest thread ever. It went from derp to reasoned debate. Finnley wren opened with racisim, paranoyd countered by baiting fw with some crazily literal interpretation of Obama's quote, then later just attacked his own bait as a strawman when fw didn't bite. But after that it got sensible.
It's like I read the thread backwards.
It's like I read the thread backwards.
tunk87: All I have been asking is for you to back up your original statement. Period. A 16 month article does not do that. At all.
No article would, for you.
No article would, for you.
paranoyd: And he has, by lending his support and helping to mobilize demonstrators.
Wasn't enough, apparently.
Oh, well.
Wasn't enough, apparently.
Oh, well.
someone who may or may not be participating in this thread: This is the strangest thread ever. It went from derp to reasoned debate. Finnley wren opened with racisim, paranoyd countered by baiting fw with some crazily literal interpretation of Obama's quote, then later just attacked his own bait as a strawman when fw didn't bite. But after that it got sensible.
It's like I read the thread backwards.
What? I wasn't saying it was a literal interpretation.
It's like I read the thread backwards.
What? I wasn't saying it was a literal interpretation.
kang: Unions are the natural counter-balance to management. That both tend to be corrupt is due to their constituents being human beings as opposed to their over-arching goals.
That is only applicable to Unions made famous in The US, Of course when your trying to counter-balance the teamsters or afl-cio's well-described past with the mafia.
Electrician's unions' and the such usually get a free pass on those ethics.
You do not want to mess with the afscme guys in michigan, you end up getting ratted out to the feds. Notice all the Wayne County in Michigan shenanigans over the years.
That is only applicable to Unions made famous in The US, Of course when your trying to counter-balance the teamsters or afl-cio's well-described past with the mafia.
Electrician's unions' and the such usually get a free pass on those ethics.
You do not want to mess with the afscme guys in michigan, you end up getting ratted out to the feds. Notice all the Wayne County in Michigan shenanigans over the years.
someone who may or may not be participating in this thread: Finnley wren opened with racisim
Hilarious.
Hilarious.
I've watched a lot of these results come in over the years, and while that doesn't make me an expert, a commanding initial lead usually means an easy victory. Especially since you can bet on the rural areas coming back with self-defeating wins for the Republicans.
That being said, it looks like Walker is going to win.
That being said, it looks like Walker is going to win.
paranoyd: Maybe not. Doesn't mean he didn't try.
Didn't do what he said he was going to.
Think we can both agree on that.
Didn't do what he said he was going to.
Think we can both agree on that.
paranoyd: It was relevant. It directly addresses the idea that Obama supports the picket lines.
It does not address whether Obama has done anything to help in Wisconsin. Which is what finnely wren's post was about that you responded to with an article from last fucking February.
It does not address whether Obama has done anything to help in Wisconsin. Which is what finnely wren's post was about that you responded to with an article from last fucking February.
finnley wren: Didn't do what he said he was going to.
Think we can both agree on that.
Metaphorically, he did. We apparently can't agree on that.
Think we can both agree on that.
Metaphorically, he did. We apparently can't agree on that.
kang: We're going to have to figure something out and the answer is definitely not getting rid of unions...
I think public sector unions vs private sector unions are different things. Public sector unions are kind of a monopoly in their own right...
I think public sector unions vs private sector unions are different things. Public sector unions are kind of a monopoly in their own right...
If you logged in, you could post here.