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  • FBI says it's ok to steal Megaupload files, because nothing physical was taken, only digital



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  • Tagged with : copyright genocide , make wat not war

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    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 08:49:42.0 login to vote score 6
    So the FBI is what's responsible for the death of the movie industry...?
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 08:50:18.0 login to vote score 2
    Wait, isn't this exactly the strawman argument Flash always uses....?
    quick1 501 2012-06-08 08:50:33.0 login to vote score 9
    I guess that means flash won't be able to sue them for stealing his argument either, since he made it digitally :/
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 08:52:32.0 login to vote score 2
    quick1: I guess that means flash won't be able to sue them for stealing his argument either, since he made it digitally :/

    I guess this means that the FBI thinks piracy isn't stealing :/

    \Would someone mind copypastaing the text? I can't hit that domain from this network
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 08:54:01.0 login to vote score 1
    muninsfire: I guess this means that the FBI thinks piracy isn't stealing :/

    Would someone mind copypastaing the text? I can't hit that domain from this network


    In New Zealand Dotcom’s legal team continues the battle over data that was seized from his home.

    Dotcom’s lawyer Mr. Akel argues that the FBI illegally copied data from his computers, to send it to the U.S.

    “The first [copies] were sent without the New Zealand Police having any say in it whatsoever,” he said quoted by Stuff.

    “If [they] went offshore without the consent of the attorney-general, it was an illegal act.”

    However, according to Crown’s lawyer, no harm was done because the evidence in question is “not physical” and therefore not covered by the relevant legislation.

    “[Information] may be the most valuable thing we have, but it is not scooped up by the act,” he said. “Nothing of the physical items have gone overseas and that was our undertaking.”

    A strange but interesting argument, since the entire case against Megaupload is built on evidence that’s not physical.

    Whether Judge Winkelmann will agree with this argument has yet to be seen.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 08:56:10.0 login to vote score 0
    osirisothedead: [snip]

    Thanks muchly.
    impasse 820 2012-06-08 08:56:55.0 login to vote score 8
    osirisothedead: [copypasta]

    You're guilty of 187 counts of copyright genocide.
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 08:57:41.0 login to vote score 4
    impasse: You're guilty of 187 counts of copyright genocide.

    It only takes 3 people to 187 my post. :/
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 08:57:52.0 login to vote score 0
    osirisothedead: A strange but interesting argument, since the entire case against Megaupload is built on evidence that’s not physical.

    The ones and zeros on Megaupload's hard drives are indeed physical.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:00:26.0 login to vote score 2
    finnley wren: The ones and zeros on Megaupload's hard drives are indeed physical.

    No they're not.

    The 1s and 0s are utterly indistinguishable from each other in all ways except the alignment of their respective magnetic fields...but even if you want to argue that magnetic field patterns constitute a physical change, the patterns are not going to be identical to those on the source media, regardless of what it was.

    \And if the source media was optical, they'll bear zero resemblence at all.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:06:32.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: The 1s and 0s are utterly indistinguishable from each other in all ways except

    Exactly.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:07:38.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: No they're not.

    The 1s and 0s are utterly indistinguishable from each other in all ways except


    And with that logic, you've just sounded the death knell for DNA evidence as well.
    impasse 820 2012-06-08 09:10:25.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: And with that logic, you've just sounded the death knell for DNA evidence as well.

    DNA is digital?
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:10:56.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: And with that logic, you've just sounded the death knell for DNA evidence as well.

    Not quite. The base pairs in DNA have a different physical shape and nature: adenosine doesn't look like cytosine, for instance.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:11:08.0 login to vote score 0
    That was my argument the other day. Nothing was stolen from the legit users of Megaupload.

    I also don't understand why people think they have a right to their files considering that the TOS ofr that site doesn't guarantee them access and can cut their access at any time.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:12:07.0 login to vote score 0
    impasse: DNA is digital?

    DNA is data.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:12:16.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Wait, isn't this exactly the strawman argument Flash always uses....?

    how is that a strawman argument?
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:13:00.0 login to vote score 0
    quick1: I guess that means flash won't be able to sue them for stealing his argument either, since he made it digitally :/

    That's your argument though, that piracy isn't stealing.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:13:24.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Not quite. The base pairs in DNA have a different physical shape and nature: adenosine doesn't look like cytosine, for instance.

    But both you and I have both. They're just arranged differently.

    In the same manner that "Star Wars" is arranged differently from "Titanic."
    impasse 820 2012-06-08 09:13:40.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: DNA is data.

    DNA is chemical.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:14:12.0 login to vote score 0
    impasse: DNA is chemical.

    As is the surface of a hard drive.
    impasse 820 2012-06-08 09:15:43.0 login to vote score 2
    finnley wren: As is the surface of a hard drive.

    Yes, and the surface of the hard drive is not data.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:17:16.0 login to vote score 0
    impasse: Yes, and the surface of the hard drive is not data.

    Time will tell. A jury will decide if there was any data on the hard drives at Megaupload.

    Perhaps they're indeed blank.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:20:02.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: But both you and I have both. They're just arranged differently.In the same manner that "Star Wars" is arranged differently from "Titanic."

    The physical composition on disc of Star Wars and Titanic is the same.

    That is not true for DNA, as you can--slowly--read off the bases with a suffiently powerful electron microscope, given there is a physical difference in the appearance of the base pairs.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:20:43.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: how is that a strawman argument?

    Well, not anymore it ain't, apparently: the FBI uses it.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:21:07.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: The physical composition on disc of Star Wars and Titanic is the same.

    Think the ones and zeros are arranged quite differently between the two.

    But I have faith in juries.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:21:57.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Think the ones and zeros are arranged quite differently between the two.But I have faith in juries.

    You cannot inspect a disc and determine the arrangement of ones and zeroes.

    And there is no jury in this case.
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 09:22:27.0 login to vote score 6
    finnley wren: Think the ones and zeros are arranged quite differently between the two.

    But I have faith in juries.


    Hopefully they know what "hyper treading multi language" is.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:23:02.0 login to vote score 0
    You cannot inspect a disc and determine the arrangement of ones and zeroes.

    Nope. Like with DNA, you use machines to do that.

    And there is no jury in this case.

    Judge, then.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:27:55.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Well, not anymore it ain't, apparently: the FBI uses it.

    But isn't that what you guys have been saying about digital data?
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:28:31.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: You cannot inspect a disc and determine the arrangement of ones and zeroes.Nope. Like with DNA, you use machines to do that.And there is no jury in this case.Judge, then.

    The machines do not, in the case of hard discs, measure physical changes: the informational change is the interaction of magnetic fields and the encoding schemae of the disc controller. There is no physically unique structure on disc; without the specific model drive controller card, there is no information: the retrieval is dependent upon the specific kind of machine to read it.

    DNA has a physical difference in that physically unique compounds are arranged to form the informational content. This encoding is independent of the method of reading it, whether through electrophoresis, electron microscope inspection, or cloning it to see what comes out.

    Both DNA and hard discs carry information, but only one--DNA--has a -physical- difference between bits.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:28:46.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: But isn't that what you guys have been saying about digital data?

    Nope :/ That was all you :/
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:30:08.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: The machines do not, in the case of hard discs, measure physical changes: the informational change is the interaction of magnetic fields and the encoding schemae of the disc controller. There is no physically unique structure on disc; without the specific model drive controller card, there is no information: the retrieval is dependent upon the specific kind of machine to read it.

    DNA has a physical difference in that physically unique compounds are arranged to form the informational content. This encoding is independent of the method of reading it, whether through electrophoresis, electron microscope inspection, or cloning it to see what comes out.

    Both DNA and hard discs carry information, but only one--DNA--has a -physical- difference between bits.


    Obfuscation. But perhaps the judge will buy it. Think it would be wise to have a fallback defense, though.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:31:04.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Obfuscation. But perhaps the judge will buy it. Think it would be wise to have a fallback defense, though.

    Fuck do I care about what the judge thinks?

    I'm just annoyed you said that 1s and 0s are physical.
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 09:33:13.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Fuck do I care about what the judge thinks?

    I'm just annoyed you said that 1s and 0s are physical.


    They are physical. Magnetism isn't a physical phenomenon? It's not magic.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:33:48.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Fuck do I care about what the judge thinks?

    Thought I remembered you being involved in something similar, and assumed you might have a dog in this fight. Apologies if I assumed too much.

    I'm just annoyed you said that 1s and 0s are physical.

    Magnetism is indeed a physical property.
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 09:34:01.0 login to vote score 1
    abt12monk: They are physical. Magnetism isn't a physical phenomenon? It's not magic.

    I store all of my free shit on my unicorn drive.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:34:26.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Nope :/ That was all you :/

    I have been the only person saying downloading isn't stealing?

    War?
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:34:47.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: They are physical. Magnetism isn't a physical phenomenon? It's not magic.

    The direction of the electron orbits has nothing to do with the physical composition of the disc.

    Now, if he was talking about CDs, which are encoded with a pattern of pits--a physical difference--that's another story.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:35:27.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Fuck do I care about what the judge thinks?Thought I remembered you being involved in something similar, and assumed you might have a dog in this fight. Apologies if I assumed too much.I'm just annoyed you said that 1s and 0s are physical.Magnetism is indeed a physical property.

    Magnetism of the disc surface is the pattern of electron orbitals--there's no physical change in the structure of the disc.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:35:56.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: I have been the only person saying downloading isn't stealing?War?

    It's kind of funny when you deliberately play stupid.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:36:07.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Magnetism of the disc surface is the pattern of electron orbitals--there's no physical change in the structure of the disc.

    Electrons are physical too.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:36:41.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Electrons are physical too.

    But the direction of their orbit is not: that's informational.

    \And actually, electrons may or may not be physical, depending on how you measure 'em ;-þ
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 09:38:41.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: But the direction of their orbit is not: that's informational.

    And actually, electrons may or may not be physical, depending on how you measure 'em ;-þ


    Electrons are matter. Matter is physical.

    /thus ends my participation in this thread, which will surely next debate how many angels fit on the head of a pin.
    grotfabrieken rubbishhausen 561 2012-06-08 09:39:14.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

    Over 9000!
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 09:40:23.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: The direction of the electron orbits has nothing to do with the physical composition of the disc.

    Now, if he was talking about CDs, which are encoded with a pattern of pits--a physical difference--that's another story.


    I don't see that the distinction is relevant or consistent with reality.

    Matter is energy, and vice-versa. The position of a particle is just a number, the same way as the orientation of its spin is.

    And the only reason a specific controller hard and drive head mechanism are needed for a given disk is because there's no standard for that. It's certainly conceivable that hard drive encoding could have been standardized the same way compact discs were.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:43:50.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Electrons are matter. Matter is physical./thus ends my participation in this thread, which will surely next debate how many angels fit on the head of a pin.

    Electrons are defined by wave functions and can sometimes be measured as matter, yes.

    Their orbital pattern, however, is not matter--and is accordingly not physical.

    \Feynman FTW
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:45:23.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: It's kind of funny when you deliberately play stupid.

    Meant Wat, not war.

    How is this playing stupid? I have always said that illegally downloading protected music and videos is stealing.


    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:46:44.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: I don't see that the distinction is relevant or consistent with reality.Matter is energy, and vice-versa. The position of a particle is just a number, the same way as the orientation of its spin is.And the only reason a specific controller hard and drive head mechanism are needed for a given disk is because there's no standard for that. It's certainly conceivable that hard drive encoding could have been standardized the same way compact discs were.

    Coulda woulda shoulda ;-þ

    Yes, matter and energy are equivalent, but that's not relevant here--the informational content of the hard disc is independent of the arrangement of matter on and in the disc itself; the informational content depends upon specific electron orbital patterns, patterns which are not defined by said physical structure--evidenced by the fact that the information can decay and be lost without any change in the physical structure of the disc.

    There is, on a hard disc, no physical difference between the 1s and the 0s.

    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:47:52.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: Meant Wat, not war.How is this playing stupid? I have always said that illegally downloading protected music and videos is stealing.

    And you've always characterized any opposing argument with the argument the FBI uses--an argument that, up until today, nobody actually opposing your point of view has used.

    But you're now in opposition to the FBI, so that amuses me.
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 09:49:16.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Electrons are defined by wave functions and can sometimes be measured as matter, yes.

    Their orbital pattern, however, is not matter--and is accordingly not physical.

    Feynman FTW


    I don't think that's quite what Feynman said or meant.

    You have a really strange definition of what is or isn't physical. If it's not physical, it's just an idea.

    Electron spin must be a physical property if it ends up having physical manifestations.
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 09:50:07.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: There is, on a hard disc, no physical difference between the 1s and the 0s.

    All I'm saying is that a physicist or hard drive engineer would disagree with you.
    cannonhawk 849 2012-06-08 09:50:46.0 login to vote score 2
    wren has gone full UT/flash.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:52:18.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: All I'm saying is that a physicist or hard drive engineer would disagree with you.

    You're stretching the definition of 'physical' out to nonclassical situations; you can't really define 'physical' on a quantum scale, now ;-þ


    abt12monk: I don't think that's quite what Feynman said or meant.You have a really strange definition of what is or isn't physical. If it's not physical, it's just an idea.Electron spin must be a physical property if it ends up having physical manifestations.

    Information is "just an idea", ain't it?

    The vector of an electron is not a physical property--it's an artifact of the coordinate system you're using to measure it. The electron iteself does not change when the vector does.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 09:52:46.0 login to vote score 0
    cannonhawk: wren has gone full UT/flash.

    Not really. This one's -fun-, not unbearably tedious.
    quick1 501 2012-06-08 09:57:14.0 login to vote score 0

    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:58:41.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: And you've always characterized any opposing argument with the argument the FBI uses--an argument that, up until today, nobody actually opposing your point of view has used.But you're now in opposition to the FBI, so that amuses me.

    Why would that amuse you? Are you one of the ones that confuses my hatred for crime, criminals and alleged criminals as blindly supporting the police?
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 09:59:13.0 login to vote score 0
    Why does anyone have the right to any of their data if the TOS of their system doesn't guarantee it?
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 10:04:33.0 login to vote score 1
    flashlv: Why does anyone have the right to any of their data if the TOS of their system doesn't guarantee it?

    That strikes me as a silly question. Say you leave your phone over at a friend's house and they refuse to give it back because they didn't guarantee return of your property when you went to their place. Is that right? No, it's dumb.
    grotfabrieken rubbishhausen 561 2012-06-08 10:06:13.0 login to vote score 1
    Make wat not war
    impasse 820 2012-06-08 10:07:35.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: Are you one of the ones that confuses my hatred for crime, criminals and alleged criminals

    Pirate anything lately?

    Heh.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 10:08:08.0 login to vote score 1
    cannonhawk: wren has gone full UT/flash.

    Seems to be the accusation anytime someone disagrees with the bN herd.
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 10:09:17.0 login to vote score 2
    finnley wren: Seems to be the accusation anytime someone disagrees with the bN herd.

    No, just when the argument comes down to one niggling little detail. Electron orbitals are about as niggling as you can get.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 10:10:59.0 login to vote score 0
    osirisothedead: No, just when the argument comes down to one niggling little detail. Electron orbitals are about as niggling as you can get.

    Then you missed the insightful "the sky isn't really blue" discussion of a few weeks ago.

    bN: We know pedantry
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 10:12:10.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Then you missed the insightful "the sky isn't really blue" discussion of a few weeks ago.

    bN: We know pedantry


    That I did, and that we do.
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 10:15:15.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: You're stretching the definition of 'physical' out to nonclassical situations; you can't really define 'physical' on a quantum scale, now ;-þ

    But everything is made up of particles that only have quantum properties. If nothing is physical at quantum scales, then nothing is physical.

    muninsfire: The vector of an electron is not a physical property--it's an artifact of the coordinate system you're using to measure it. The electron iteself does not change when the vector does.

    You're looking at it the wrong way. If the electron changes, the vector describing its properties, not the other way around.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 10:24:11.0 login to vote score 0
    osirisothedead: That strikes me as a silly question. Say you leave your phone over at a friend's house and they refuse to give it back because they didn't guarantee return of your property when you went to their place. Is that right? No, it's dumb.

    Their TOS for Megaupload doesn't offer any guarantee for anyone being able to access their data. Why would it change just because a 3rd party got involved?
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 10:25:13.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Seems to be the accusation anytime someone disagrees with the bN herd.

    You just have to stay with the herd. I'm not a follower, and that's why I don't fit in well.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 10:29:09.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: But everything is made up of particles that only have quantum properties. If nothing is physical at quantum scales, then nothing is physical.You're looking at it the wrong way. If the electron changes, the vector describing its properties, not the other way around.

    Nothing's physical? That's one interpretation, I suppose--or you could recognize that classical mechanics emerges as the amalgamation of the statistical mean of quantum interactions....

    Also, the electron itself doesn't change. The orbital pattern may differ, but that's not a change in the electron.


    flashlv: Why would that amuse you?

    Many things amuse me, little fella. Many things amuse me.
    quick1 501 2012-06-08 10:31:47.0 login to vote score 2
    flashlv: Their TOS for Megaupload doesn't offer any guarantee for anyone being able to access their data. Why would it change just because a 3rd party got involved?

    There's nothing about a Whine to Grahams button in the TOS, either.
    flashlv 1657 2012-06-08 10:33:30.0 login to vote score 0
    quick1: There's nothing about a Whine to Grahams button in the TOS, either.

    That's a feature to combat the assholes.
    osirisothedead 1858 2012-06-08 10:34:43.0 login to vote score 1
    flashlv: That's a feature to combat the assholes.

    GIS (safesearch moderate) for "asshole combat":


    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 10:41:57.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: Nothing's physical? That's one interpretation, I suppose--or you could recognize that classical mechanics emerges as the amalgamation of the statistical mean of quantum interactions....

    I didn't say I actually believed nothing was physical. It was just the logical conclusion of what you said.

    Classical mechanics is just a limited interpretation of quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics is what actually physically occurs. And classical mechanics is shown time and time again to be straight up wrong.
    quick1 501 2012-06-08 10:44:34.0 login to vote score 0
    ITT: Math. Not even once.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 10:46:28.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: I didn't say I actually believed nothing was physical. It was just the logical conclusion of what you said.Classical mechanics is just a limited interpretation of quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics is what actually physically occurs. And classical mechanics is shown time and time again to be straight up wrong.

    With you, except for one little thing--

    "physical" is really a classical mechanics description. It kinda loses meaning when you dig down to where we're talking about. Saying that something "physically" occurs is kinda misleading.
    paranoyd 6555 2012-06-08 10:50:39.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Electrons are matter. Matter is physical.

    /thus ends my participation in this thread, which will surely next debate how many angels fit on the head of a pin.


    Whew, for a minute there I thought mini-UT was just gonna shit up the thread for hours.
    abt12monk 10796 2012-06-08 10:51:46.0 login to vote score 0
    muninsfire: With you, except for one little thing--

    "physical" is really a classical mechanics description. It kinda loses meaning when you dig down to where we're talking about. Saying that something "physically" occurs is kinda misleading.


    Then you're saying physical reality is an illusion. If quantum mechanics isn't physically real, then nothing is physically real.

    The same way as if electrons don't have free will, then nothing has free will.
    muninsfire 189 2012-06-08 10:54:10.0 login to vote score 0
    abt12monk: Then you're saying physical reality is an illusion. If quantum mechanics isn't physically real, then nothing is physically real.The same way as if electrons don't have free will, then nothing has free will.

    It'd be -so- easy to go crazypants here...

    That which you call 'physical reality' is an emergent property of the interaction of a very large number of quantum processes.

    The combination of things can exhibit properties that the component things do not--the example of an explosive metal and a poison gas forming a nutritional supplement in combination is a trivial example.

    Thus, you can have "unreal" things make "real" things in sufficient numbers.

    \And I'm not going anywhere near 'free will' as that's ponylicious
    paranoyd 6555 2012-06-08 10:54:36.0 login to vote score 1
    abt12monk: Then you're saying physical reality is an illusion. If quantum mechanics isn't physically real, then nothing is physically real.

    The same way as if electrons don't have free will, then nothing has free will.


    RUSH does.
    finnley wren 24 2012-06-08 10:56:28.0 login to vote score 0
    paranoyd: Whew, for a minute there I thought mini-UT was just gonna shit up the thread for hours.

    Wasn't gonna happen. Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to the thread, though.
    paranoyd 6555 2012-06-08 11:07:45.0 login to vote score 0
    finnley wren: Wasn't gonna happen. Thanks for your thoughtful contributions to the thread, though.

    You are welcome.
    cannonhawk 849 2012-06-08 11:33:49.0 login to vote score 1
    finnley wren: Seems to be the accusation anytime someone disagrees with the bN herd.

    I feel bad now that I see flash cool voted me.
    clifton 1850 2012-06-08 11:37:04.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: Why would that amuse you? Are you one of the ones that confuses my hatred for crime, criminals and alleged criminals as blindly supporting the police?

    You admitted to piracy and consuming illegally imported meat. That makes you a criminal.

    Do you hate yourself?
    clifton 1850 2012-06-08 11:38:40.0 login to vote score 0
    osirisothedead: That strikes me as a silly question. Say you leave your phone over at a friend's house and they refuse to give it back because they didn't guarantee return of your property when you went to their place. Is that right? No, it's dumb.

    Lol. This proves that flash thinks that all digital content downloaded is piracy, even if you own the data.
    someone who may or may not be unabomber 2012-06-08 11:42:25.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: You just have to stay with the herd. I'm not a follower, and that's why I don't fit in well.

    Yeah, I know what you mean, brother. I decided not to follow the herd and I was punished for it.
    clifton 1850 2012-06-08 11:44:25.0 login to vote score 0
    flashlv: I have been the only person saying downloading isn't stealing?

    War?


    What if I downloaded a song from iTunes that I have purchased. Is that stealing?
    If you logged in, you could post here.